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It was such a short lived bubble that many probably never saw it, however, very briefly, the Aiden O’Brien trained filly with the ambitious name of Dazzling was favourite for next year’s Oaks. Being by Galileo out of a Danehill mare she was always going to shorten up after her debut win over a mile at The Curragh, but 14/1 for the Oaks looked a bit crazy by any standards at this stage. Fast forward just two weeks and she goes off 8/11 for a race over the same course and distance but can finish only sixth, albeit with involvement in barging after she came under pressure and looked well held. What I find highly unsatisfactory was that Joseph O’Brien put up 2lbs overweight on the filly the day she met defeat. Is it really fair on the horse that she needs to give weight to her opponents? Are the O’Briens arrogant in thinking their horse is so superior that it can give weight while stepping up in class?
The maiden race Dazzling won has seen 9 runs since, with 9 unplaced, a bit worrying for her supporters and it would seem to suggest she can ill afford to have a pilot who is adding an extra 2lb penalty.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
The Racing Post results state that JOB put up 1lb OW when she won but doesn’t record any OW the day she got beaten. Are they mistaken Steve?
It can’t carry on surely. Even ignoring us plebs (punters), a pound or two overweight in a pattern race could potentially cost Coomore millions of pounds. Big John – "Do I not like that!".
I believe you guys are wasting your time.Joseph will ride whatever Aidan wants and our voices will be ignored.This has been going on for at east two years now and it will continue until Joseph gets tired of it.Aidan is the power at Ballydoyle.
I believe you guys are wasting your time.Joseph will ride whatever Aidan wants and our voices will be ignored.This has been going on for at east two years now and it will continue until Joseph gets tired of it.Aidan is the power at Ballydoyle.
AOB is a valuable employee, but an employee none the less.
I won’t pretend i am a fan of the seemingly ever lasting words come out of anus machine, but this seems like a bizarre complaint.
The overweight wouldn’t have altered the result (or at least, it is impossible to prove beyond doubt that it did).
Secondly, the team is entitled to run their horses where they like as much as they are entitled to what they say. Do i ever listen? Nah, but then i am sure some poor schmohawk does.
Lastly, AOB is more than just an employee. Plus, this implication would warrant more respect if the team were struggling and not producing the "expected" results relative to the invesment and financial clout (i,e Godolphin). This isn’t the case.
Joseph O’Brien is a good jockey. Are there better options out there? Absolutely. Are they entitled to employ whomever they wish? Absolutely. Does he have the job because of nepotism … absolutely, but welcome to the real world and again, it’s their choice. If you as punters don’t like it, then avoid gambling money when they are involved. Moaning about any greater justice or self-entitlement beyond that is idiotic.
I won’t pretend i am a fan of the seemingly ever lasting words come out of anus machine, but this seems like a bizarre complaint.
The overweight wouldn’t have altered the result (or at least, it is impossible to prove beyond doubt that it did).
Secondly, the team is entitled to run their horses where they like as much as they are entitled to what they say. Do i ever listen? Nah, but then i am sure some poor schmohawk does.
Lastly, AOB is more than just an employee. Plus, this implication would warrant more respect if the team were struggling and not producing the "expected" results relative to the invesment and financial clout (i,e Godolphin). This isn’t the case.
Joseph O’Brien is a good jockey. Are there better options out there? Absolutely. Are they entitled to employ whomever they wish? Absolutely. Does he have the job because of nepotism … absolutely, but welcome to the real world and again, it’s their choice. If you as punters don’t like it, then avoid gambling money when they are involved. Moaning about any greater justice or self-entitlement beyond that is idiotic.
I don’t know who you are insulting with your juvenile opening remark, and frankly I don’t care as your post has missed the OP’s point entirely.
If the Derby was lost by a nose with JOB putting up 2lb OW on the RU then the result would certainly have been effected, unless the entire principle of Handicapping is pointless?
Dear PC I believe that Aidan threatened to move out if Joseph was not the first jockey,(pretty heavy stuff). I believe the issue came to light when David W.ended up having a choice of horses owned by Coolmore.It was explained to Aidan that Wachman was part of the family and Aidan said that Joseph was part of his family.Take it from there…….That is what I read in the papers.
Dear PC I believe that Aidan threatened to move out if Joseph was not the first jockey,(pretty heavy stuff). I believe the issue came to light when David W.ended up having a choice of horses owned by Coolmore.It was explained to Aidan that Wachman was part of the family and Aidan said that Joseph was part of his family.Take it from there…….That is what I read in the papers.
Really? I missed that little gem. Do you have a link or some direct quotations?
No offence I am sure the article you read speculated, but this ultimatum seems very un-AOB, a little far-fetched to me.
The article was at least two years old.About the time Murtagh left.Sorry that I don’t have details of which article it was.Aidan was quoted as saying he could always go back to Wexford if they did not like what he was doing.The only time I ever read of Aidan spilling his gut.Wish I could be more specific.
Did you ever notice how Murtagh is so silent about his departure? They must have paid him a fortune to keep his mouth shut and just leave.The article was at least two years old.About the time Murtagh left.Sorry that I don’t have details of which article it was.Aidan was quoted as saying he could always go back to Wexford if they did not like what he was doing.The only time I ever read of Aidan spilling his gut.Wish I could be more specific.
Did you ever notice how Murtagh is so silent about his departure? They must have paid him a fortune to keep his mouth shut and just leave.I disagree about the significance of your Murtagh point. I cannot remember Kinane, Spencer, or even Fallon, saying much either.
I don’t know who you are insulting with your juvenile opening remark, and frankly I don’t care as your post has missed the OP’s point entirely.
The opening remark is how i refer to the press releases from AOB/Coolmore.
If the Derby was lost by a nose with JOB putting up 2lb OW on the RU then the result would certainly have been effected, unless the entire principle of Handicapping is pointless?
That didn’t happen. Furthermore, it is impossible to clarify whether the 2LB overweight would have cost ROTW a theoretical victory, since weight and its implication varies wildly.
Handicapping has a point in so much as it is how the system is governed. All i said was examples like the scenario you gave cannot have validation to it, since it is difficult to prove beyond doubt that weight altered the result. Unless we have multiple meetings of the protagonists and really really really understand their level. Otherwise, it is guess work to an extent.
Hence the relative stupidity of the original question/rant.
I don’t know who you are insulting with your juvenile opening remark, and frankly I don’t care as your post has missed the OP’s point entirely.
The opening remark is how i refer to the press releases from AOB/Coolmore.
If the Derby was lost by a nose with JOB putting up 2lb OW on the RU then the result would certainly have been effected, unless the entire principle of Handicapping is pointless?
That didn’t happen. Furthermore, it is impossible to clarify whether the 2LB overweight would have cost ROTW a theoretical victory, since weight and its implication varies wildly.
Handicapping has a point in so much as it is how the system is governed. All i said was examples like the scenario you gave cannot have validation to it, since it is difficult to prove beyond doubt that weight altered the result. Unless we have multiple meetings of the protagonists and really really really understand their level. Otherwise, it is guess work to an extent.
Hence the relative stupidity of the original question/rant.
I think you are being disingenuous. If you backed / wanted a horse to win would you prefer it carried ‘X’ or ‘X+2lb’.
weight and its implication varies wildly.
Hence the relative stupidity of the original question/rant.
Handicapping is far from an exact science but I don’t believe any horse in history has ever been helped by carrying
more
weight than it should have done. There is fairly decent logic from Physics that stacks up regarding the principle that extra weight carried will have a negative effect on a horse’s performance. If we can’t accept that as fact then the whole concept of handicapping needs to be re-visited soon.
I have never backed Dazzling and don’t back odds-on shots anyway, so there is no rant.
My point stands and I think it is unprofessional to put up overweight on a horse, particularly when asked to do 9st. Most times 2lb extra probably wont make the difference between winning and losing but the law of averages makes it certain that one day it will at least be arguable that it cost the horse the race. It seems odd to me that a team who have the best breeding operation and a shed load of money behind them would employ arguably the best trainer in the business and yet not have one of the best jockeys on board their runners. The choice is theirs to make but I know that I would want the best pilot available if the choice were mine and particularly one who can meet the weight requirements. It is a complacent man who looks at their success and doesn’t ponder about where it could have been better still and analysed where their weaknesses are.
It would be nice to think people could post their opinions on a forum without the label of "stupidity" being levelled at them. I hope you haven’t developed Diabetes JStar, it can lead to below the brassiere comments if you’re not careful
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Handicapping is far from an exact science but I don’t believe any horse in history has ever been helped by carrying
more
weight than it should have done. There is fairly decent logic from Physics that stacks up regarding the principle that extra weight carried will have a negative effect on a horse’s performance. If we can’t accept that as fact then the whole concept of handicapping needs to be re-visited soon.
I have never backed Dazzling and don’t back odds-on shots anyway, so there is no rant.
My point stands and I think it is unprofessional to put up overweight on a horse, particularly when asked to do 9st. Most times 2lb extra probably wont make the difference between winning and losing but the law of averages makes it certain that one day it will at least be arguable that it cost the horse the race. It seems odd to me that a team who have the best breeding operation and a shed load of money behind them would employ arguably the best trainer in the business and yet not have one of the best jockeys on board their runners. The choice is theirs to make but I know that I would want the best pilot available if the choice were mine and particularly one who can meet the weight requirements. It is a complacent man who looks at their success and doesn’t ponder about where it could have been better still and analysed where their weaknesses are.
It would be nice to think people could post their opinions on a forum without the label of "stupidity" being levelled at them. I hope you haven’t developed Diabetes JStar, it can lead to below the brassiere comments if you’re not careful
Good, earnest stuff SteveC and I’ll submit to your reverence of jockeys and trainers if and only if you can explain the great unknownn: is the horse carrying under/overweight since its last run?
"stevecaution":29siacry wrote:
Handicapping is far from an exact science but I don’t believe any horse in history has ever been helped by carrying
more
weight than it should have done. There is fairly decent logic from Physics that stacks up regarding the principle that extra weight carried will have a negative effect on a horse’s performance. If we can’t accept that as fact then the whole concept of handicapping needs to be re-visited soon.
I have never backed Dazzling and don’t back odds-on shots anyway, so there is no rant.
Yes, there is a correlation, but when discussing relative minute amount of weight (2LB), it is difficult to prove that it affected the result. In the instance we are discussing, the extra weight likely made no different whatsoever. Putting up 2LB overweight will also vary in impact depending on the conditions of many variables IMO.
My point stands and I think it is unprofessional to put up overweight on a horse, particularly when asked to do 9st. Most times 2lb extra probably wont make the difference between winning and losing but the law of averages makes it certain that one day it will at least be arguable that it cost the horse the race. It seems odd to me that a team who have the best breeding operation and a shed load of money behind them would employ arguably the best trainer in the business and yet not have one of the best jockeys on board their runners. The choice is theirs to make but I know that I would want the best pilot available if the choice were mine and particularly one who can meet the weight requirements. It is a complacent man who looks at their success and doesn’t ponder about where it could have been better still and analysed where their weaknesses are.
He’s paid by his employers, not you. People are unprofessional at work all the time. There is no need to crucify and effectively bitch about these smaller mistakes. If the jockey in question wasn’t O’Brien, we wouldn’t having this discussion. Don’t wrap the conversation up in sheeps clothing, we know the agenda here.
You are entitled to your opinion regarding selection of jockey. Since however the operation thinks differently and continues to have success, can we not leave it at that? I happen to agree that there are better jockeys out there, but the perpetual moaning about Joseph on this forum is tedious. If you’re moaning (not aimed at you Steve, others moreso) because you backed a horse he was on, it’s your own fault.
[quote="stevecaution"It would be nice to think people could post their opinions on a forum without the label of "stupidity" being levelled at them. I hope you haven’t developed Diabetes JStar, it can lead to below the brassiere comments if you’re not careful
Steve, for now, i am just an ass****. Maybe at some point i will discover Diabetes and it will all make sense
You’re all wrong.
Einstein posited that the closer an object approached the speed of light, so the mass of that object increased, getting both faster and heavier.
This scientifically* proves that more weight added to horse’s back is a positive benefit, particularly over extended distances where increased time allows velocity to increase pro-rata. In effect, a four-mile chaser would be running faster and faster as he approached light-speed (670,616,629 mph).
I think Einstein banged on about this being something to do with his Theory of Special Relativity. Mind, he used to come out with all sorts of stuff when he’d had a few.
Mike
*Physics O-Level, Grade D, 1980.
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