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I’m sure Dan and Harry Skelton are a great partnership, but I find it rather unedifying that they are being applauded for winning a large amount of pathetically weak summer jumps races. When it comes to the beginning of the jumps season proper they are going to have a big advantage in the prize money and jockey title championships which for me isn’t fair and doesn’t show the full story.
This reminds me of the days of Martin Pipe and Peter Scudamore running scores of moderate horses just in the name of being called champions.
I’m sure I’ll be accused of talking absolute nonsense, but for me jumps racing is all about quality and not quantity.
It’s not “just in the name of being called champions”, Phil. Surely it’s all about winning races for their owners?
There’s a case that winning cheap races might put their handicap marks up for more valuable races later on, not doing as well in the latter… But where do you draw the line? Should all uncompetitive races not count? Should only 8+ runner races count? Should odds-on favourite winners not count?
If only October to April should count what about small fields etc in that timespan? Even some Cheltenham Festival races have small fields and/or odds-on favourites – “uncompetitive”; should they count?
If I had my way there’d be no jump racing in the Summer – especially in a drought. Weather may have something to do with small fields. But if having racing then they’re perfectly entitled to go for it and therefore deserve credit for the planning/number of winners.
Jump racing is all about quality for me too, but I don’t see why the little races should not count towards titles etc. Jockeys (and imo trainers) titles should be about quantity and not quality, even if some of us aren’t interested in it. Well, not been interested in it since backing Johnson for the title @ 7/4 first year of McCoy’s retirement.
Value Is EverythingThis topic highlights the question of whether the Trainers and Jockeys Championships should be decided on the same basis or different ones.
As it stands currently Harry is gaining far more of an advantage than Dan because all winning rides count as 1 regardless of quality whereas the amounts of prize money being picked up by the trainer’s charges reflect the generally lower grade fare of Summer Jumping.
Surely quality should be rewarded and consistency of how Champions are decided attained by switching the Jockeys title to prize money based?
Amount of skill needed by a jockey to win a Grade 1 Chase is not necessarily more than winning a Selling Chase. So why should a Grade 1 Chase count infinitely more than a Selling Chase, GM?
Value Is EverythingWhat’s not fair….?
Richard Johnson has had more rides 253
Harry Skelton has ridden 202the stats may not include today
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Dan is doing well while he can.Nothing wrong with that. Although he will have a good bit of quality to come in the main season, the yard experiences severe lulls, sometimes dreadfully out of form. My impression is that Harry gets a lot of horses on the floor at the business end of a race.
Not a lot wrong with the idea of summer jumping on the whole but this particular summer has made it seem more inappropriate.Remember,however, it followed a particularly cold and wet spring where good ground horses got few opportunities
True, Ginger, but the same argument can be applied to trainers’ skills, therefore, it is not logical to have one Championship decided by prize money (quality) and one by counting all wins as equal (quantity).
Champions in all sports are lauded as being the best and are determined by results at the highest standard of ‘play’. And you admit that Jump racing is all about quality for you.
Yet you would like the Trainers Championship to be decided on quantity like the Jockeys title. So at Sandown on the last day of the season you’d prefer a 12-race card and wouldn’t mind if no contest was above Grade 4?!? :)
One of the few things racing has got right but don’t take it as a foregone conclusion it will continue, look at the pigs ear they’ve made of the flat championships.
Not that the general public are that fussed about championships, the hysteria about them is reserved for the racing media but, as even the missus says “they’ve got to fill the airtime with something”.
Jumps jockey’s job is to ride winners and while I’m sure there’s an odd owner or two here who prefer winners to prize money, the trainer’s job should be to accrue as much prize money as possible for the owner.
A knock on effect of the having the jockeys one decided on prize money would be the top ones would be less inclined to trawl the lesser meetings for winners, something that would increase as the years passed by, making a lot of these meetings less attractive to racegoers.
What is most unusual in Harry Skelton’s achievement is that 200 of his 206 rides this season have been for his brother. If he does win the championship with such scant outside support, I suspect that will indeed be something.
Last season, under 10% of his rides were from other yards, and his brother provided 128 of his 131 wins. In comparison, Hobbs produced just 240 of Johnson’s 901 rides and only 38 of his 176 wins.
I’ve been following the Skeltons for the past few weeks and it has been quite profitable doing so .
Like our Ginge , I am no lover of lover of summer racing – or flat racing in the winter either – but I believe if it helps pay the bills and keeps the wolf from the door of the smaller yards , then I am comfortable with that .
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Just because I like a certain type of race, GM; doesn’t mean I think only that type should count as a win.
A win is a win and should imo be counted as such in a title race.
If not, then it would be like a win against Man City being counted as 10 points, whilst a win against West Ham counts only 1 point.Value Is EverythingAs a diehard Millwall fan anyone who beats West Ham should get 100 points lol :)
We will have to agree to disagree, I still say both titles should be decided on the same basis – whichever one it is.
Your football analogy doesn’t work because the competition is already divided into 5+ ‘Grades’ (Premier being G1, ‘Conference’ G5, etc.), therefore, if a mathematical formula could be agreed upon the worth of a win in the Premier League could be calculated as worth xx.xx more points than one in League 2!
It is your analogy that doesn’t work, GM.
Those in different football leagues are in their own (different) title races.
In the Jockeys Championship, summer jumping is in the same title race as the Cheltenham Festival.
So unless making Summer Jumping a completely different competition a win is a win is a win…
Also: In football the amount of skill needed in each league is directly proportionate to the league it is in.
Where as – because the jockey is on board the horse – lesser grades of horse racing often need more skill from the jockey.Unlike football teams – when we’re talking about “Lesser grades” of horse racing it’s only a lesser grade of horse – not jockey. So in the Jockeys Championship we’re still talking about the same quality of horsemanship. So there is no reason for a different title and no reason to have more valuable races counting a lot more.
Value Is EverythingYes, the analogy works because to match the number of jockeys who have at least one ride in a season and, therefore, partake in the title race with the equivalent number of football clubs you would have to go as far as Tier 7 or 8. Perhaps it’s not a good idea to compare the vastly larger number of jockeys who have a mount with a sport that divides itself into 20-24 participant leagues. Racing does not do that, there is no separate Summer Jumping League, so prize money is as good an indicator as any and the Champion Jockey should be decided on that basis like the Champion Trainer is.
Furthermore, in lesser Grades of horse racing not only the horses are inferior. The jockeys and trainers are as a whole likely to be less skilled or at least less well financially supported and the amount of pressure on the jockeys, the mental factor, is also less. And it is not necessarily the case that more skilled horsemanship is required on lower class horses because all the animals in a race will be of that ilk and, therefore, easier to beat.
It brings it back to Phil’s original point. The Skeltons are big dogs playing with puppies who are using their advantage of being a huge operation, soundly backed, to hoover up multiple morsels of money (thus denying the smaller outfits who desperately need some success and glimmer of hope to keep going). The accumulated prize money won’t help Dan win the title as much as cheap victories might Harry. The CJ should be decided on prize money also.
The jockeys title is fine for the football example it’s like the top goalscorer market for players
Richard Johnson rides in the same not all races as Tom, Dick and Harry
The trainers title for prize money is like the Champions League those with the best horses race in the best races
Keep it as it is or change it, won’t make a difference because we will still be discussing it…
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Just keeping my eye in for the arguments when proper racing starts again in a couple of months, Nathan! Haven’t watched a horse race since Cartmel at the end of May (unless you count 1920s Nationals on YouTube over 100 times each to help nail what happened where).
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