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Fractional are aa much apart of handicapping as the finish time. We shouldn’t even have to keep asking for this service. They should be on every course in the country.Standard. We did have them. Why the new owner at turf trax decided to stop this needs answering. I am considering dropping UK racing and just converting to American as they have a much greater respect for the handicapper than over here.
The Yanks have had fractionals for 20 years on every course.
What is putting fractionals on 17 races this year going to change??
Thats like giving some one 1% of a sum then being expected to know the answer.
Racing culture needs to change dramatically in this country.
Fractional are aa much apart of handicapping as the finish time. We shouldn’t even have to keep asking for this service. They should be on every course in the country.Standard. We did have them. Why the new owner at turf trax decided to stop this needs answering. I am considering dropping UK racing and just converting to American as they have a much greater respect for the handicapper than over here.
The Yanks have had fractionals for 20 years on every course.
What is putting fractionals on 17 races this year going to change??
Thats like giving some one 1% of a sum then being expected to know the answer.
Racing culture needs to change dramatically in this country.
Far longer than that, actually.
The American Teletimer Corp. was founded in 1938, their first client being Pimlico Racecourse, and soon expanded to more than 80 tracks in the US and Canada.
http://www.teletimer.com/timing.htmFractions existed beforehand of course, they were just hand-timed.
Charts from theMay 7, 1896
Daily Racing Form:
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageview … 701%3A2.11
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageview … 0701%3A3.1
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageview … 0701%3A3.2Wow, thanks very much. I’m printing them off and will have them blown up on my wall. Proper history. I never imagined that fractional would go back so far. Cheers
Wow, thanks very much. I’m printing them off and will have them blown up on my wall. Proper history. I never imagined that fractional would go back so far. Cheers
The Kentuckiana Digital library is great, they’ve got a searchable archive Daily Racing Form issues from the 1890s through the 1990s available for free online. It’s about 80% complete now. http://kdl.kyvl.org/drf/
Wow, thanks very much. I’m printing them off and will have them blown up on my wall. Proper history. I never imagined that fractional would go back so far. Cheers
British expat trainers in Victorian India placed sticks in the ground as furlong markers and had whole interval training regimes based on sectional times. Modern UK "trainers", ie stable managers, have regressed to no stopwatches, so no clue as to what speed their horses are training at or even an exact distance they have covered.
Time analysis has been in place somewhere (but not much in UK) in racing for over 140 years. It did not start with Andy Beyer or Nick Mordin.yes thanks for that. I’m Aware andy beyer didn’t invent fractionals, as his books were based on speed figs. In his early works "picking winners" beyer tossed pace analysis aside and believed that the speed fig was only relevent.Thats whta fractionals are used for ,Pace analysis. It wasn’t until later i believe in " Beyer on speed" did he except and adapt his ideas and methods to pace.
However, am I right in saying it was handicappers in America that took fracrionals and really began to use them as another weapon on the track. ( sardin rings abell)
yes thanks for that. I’m Aware andy beyer didn’t invent fractionals, as his books were based on speed figs. In his early works "picking winners" beyer tossed pace analysis aside and believed that the speed fig was only relevent.Thats whta fractionals are used for ,Pace analysis. It wasn’t until later i believe in " Beyer on speed" did he except and adapt his ideas and methods to pace.
However, am I right in saying it was handicappers in America that took fracrionals and really began to use them as another weapon on the track. ( sardin rings abell)
The value of sectionals was known in the late 1800s.
It was not until electronic timers, computers databases and race videos became more widely available that its use took off in a small way even in USA which had had hand timed and called sectionals for years before when in the 80s Howard Sartin gave his classes and disciple Tom Brohamer wrote his book based on data from the special fast pace circumstances of California dirt racing. The subject has been largely stuck at that point ever since for the general USA racing handicapper and any betting value has long gone. In UK sectionals took off in an even smaller way at the same time in the 80s with one service for NH racing and later the short lived Turftrax data. That means in UK sectionals are far more worthwhile in collating and applying as few betting competitors have the real knowledge or time.It is always dangerous to presume in racing that a book / class means that the author has developed or invented something, when for the real developers and profitable practitioners in other countries to do so would be the last thing imaginable in giving up a large betting edge for a few peanuts in the process.
Has everyone seen this?
I believe its very important we keep banging on about this subject, otherwise it’ll take 10 years, they must be hounded, they owe it to us!!
I believe its very important we keep banging on about this subject, otherwise it’ll take 10 years, they must be hounded, they owe it to us!!
It is ironic that BHA have now snuck in "speed sensing" when it suits them, and kept the information from the public.
They have previously insisted that it is too expensive and no one wants it. That it cannot be used to produce hard evidence of say horses being ridden at wrong speeds in order to lose.
Now we find that in presumed secrecy with owners that they have fitted speed sensors to every horse that raced over the GN course at Aintree. Reason, ironically, is to find
hard evidence
of how fast horses were going though the race but for injury prevention issues. So now add horse welfare to integrity and prosecution evidence to the need for punters to be better informed – all costing relative peanuts in a £ multi-million subsidised industry.
Robert – I think the speed sensing data at Aintree is something that Aintree themselves commissioned and it is Aintree who ‘own’ the data rather than the BHA. I think Aintree made some of the data available to the BHA to help with the investigations into the events on GN day and that they’re going to offer the BHA the data to help them conduct their more general review of the race (following on from last year’s comprehensive review).
I’m not sure you can point the finger at the BHA on that one.
Presumably, as an owner, you might have the right of veto to any such devices being fitted to your horse if it was not in the entry small-print as a race condition. Interesting question that.
You saying about the Grand National and sectional timing: In Mon Mome’s Grand National, I was confused as to how so many could catch up and be in with a chance of winning at the last fence – Before "The Prophet" pointed out the pace slowed dramatically when the two front runners fell at Bechers second time around. Time between that fence and the last was significantly slower on the second circuit.
You can learn quite a bit from sectional timing, even in extreme distance steeplechases.
Value Is EverythingRobert – I think the speed sensing data at Aintree is something that Aintree themselves commissioned and it is Aintree who ‘own’ the data rather than the BHA. I think Aintree made some of the data available to the BHA to help with the investigations into the events on GN day and that they’re going to offer the BHA the data to help them conduct their more general review of the race (following on from last year’s comprehensive review).
I’m not sure you can point the finger at the BHA on that one.
Presumably, as an owner, you might have the right of veto to any such devices being fitted to your horse if it was not in the entry small-print as a race condition. Interesting question that.
As we have not been told I have no idea who commissioned the speed sensing data. Why would Aintree be interested, if they were not providing the data to the public in the same way as Qipco use it for publicity? I presume BHA as sole authorisers would have to have been involved as all trainers must have been told beforehand to fit the sensors when saddling up in accordance with BHA rules. My main point is that BHA have not seen fit to provide the data to punters before but it is now OK if it is for their own purposes.
Speed sensors have been obligatory under rules since around 2005.
The rule has been recently changed:
1. Trainer Manual (C) – PART 3 – GENERAL DUTIES OF TRAINERS – (C)21 to (C)49 – 43. At the racecourse (Last Modified: 31/03/2012)… sheets or rugs are removed from the horse before going to the start of a race (including any worn by the horse whilst walking in a Parade). 43.4 In respect of any race where 43.4.1 the Authority has specified in the race conditions that an Approved Speed Sensing Device must be carried in the race, and 43.4.2 an Approved Speed Sensing Device is provided by the Racecourse Managing Executive, the Trainer of each horse which starts in the race must ensure that the device is carried in the horse’s number cloth. 43.5 Where a …
Why would the BHA provide the data? The Aintree data isn’t their’s to provide Robert it belongs to Aintree, not the BHA.
And you can download this weekend’s Newmarket data here (for free) –
http://www.newmarketracecourses.co.uk/racing/fixtures/the-qipco-guineas-festival/sectional-timing/
I don’t know why Aintree commissioned the data but presume they possibly wanted it for analysing the Grand National following last year’s review in an attempt to understand more clearly some of the factors at play. But that’s just speculation on my part.
Why would the BHA provide the data? The Aintree data isn’t their’s to provide Robert it belongs to Aintree, not the BHA.
And you can download this weekend’s Newmarket data here (for free) –
http://www.newmarketracecourses.co.uk/racing/fixtures/the-qipco-guineas-festival/sectional-timing/
Once again you post without checking the most basic of facts.
The data published by Turftrax belongs to Turftrax.
Turftrax have no problem in publishing their data, as illustrated by the Qipco races you already allude to.For Newmarket:
"This data has been provided by TurfTrax Ltd courtesy of Newmarket Racecourses Ltd & QIPCO British Champions Series Ltd
Terms & Conditions apply to the use of this data see http://www.britishhorseracing.com for details."Use of the data is controlled by T&C of BHA – not Newmarket, not Qipco, not Aintree.
I don’t personally want the Aintree data as I have no betting interest in jump racing.
Once again my post concerns that BHA use Sectionals for their own purposes but do not support its wider use to the public that substantially subsidise racing.
As you must surely comprehend by now, I want and expect BHA to be fully open and honest with the punters who pay their wages.
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