- This topic has 86 replies, 42 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Without doubt the best since Dancing Brave, maybe even better than that.
One of the most outstanding 3-y-o middle distance horses I’ve seen in 50 years of following the sport.
A very persuasive argument there, Ten Up.
You missed out one itsy bitsy thing, though- where is the evidence to back up your claim that the 3-y-os this year are "very weak"?
If we’re going to make legends of sophomores, maybe we should remove the WFA allowance from the Pattern. I mean what self respecting legend ever needed a helping hand.
It’s long past o’clock that the elite were disincentivised from retiring their stock prematurely.
- Total Posts 17716
And that’s the very thing we don’t know Friggo. To be a great Horse you gon’t have to beat great horses but you have to beat very decent horses.
The problem with Sea the Stars is he never beats anything by very far wheas a horse like Mill Reef won a group race by 15 lengths in a hack canter.
I have never been and will never be a fan of Fame and Glory and I find it difficult to believe all 3 of AOB’s squad who turned up in the same season are something special. At least not at the distances he’s been chasing Sea the Stars backside at.
For me Fame and Glory is an Irish Derby St Leger horse, Mastercraftsman is a mile horse and without a doubt the star of the show is for me Rip Van Winkle but again at a mile.
I think Ripp Van Winkle gets 1m2f but against Sea the Stars he didn’t. 2 1/2 furlongs out he was abslutely hacking and when Sea the Stars quickened he had no problem going with him. He pulled up along side him leaving Conduit who had come with a good run in his wake, but he faltered as much as Sea the Strars quickened in the last 1/2 furlong and looked like he simply didn’t see the trip out.
Murtagh’s reaction and I do believe it was a honest one was to say he thought they had been running him over the wrong trip. AOB”s reaction was to run him over a mile where he destryoed among other the 1000 guineas winner. I’d say that was pretty conclusive evidence that his best trip is 1 mile.
I don’t think there’s a keener or tougher horse than Mastercraftsman in training at the moment. Everyrcae he has run in he runs his heart out fighting all the way to the line. AT least he did until he was stepped up in distance against the best in the country. At York he couldn’t have fought a fly off a furlong from home and he even easier beat the othe other day. AOB wanted to know if he got the trip well now he knows he does not.
I’ve already covered Fame and Glory and I honestly think he’s way out of his league and talk of him winning the Arc is just wishful thinking. He lacks that final punch it takes to win a proper Group 1, Travels great, quickens but then goes flat. Distance for distance I would rate him the least likely to enter the AOB hall of fame. I think he’s been fully exposed as v good and it ends there.
These are all things that make me wonder just how good Sea the Stars is. Where 4 year olds are concerned, and someone pushed it in my face RVW beat some, these horses have had one easy time of it.
The top 4 year olds are Conduit 1m4f to1m6f and Glodikova at 8f to 9f so
Therefore up to now, no 3yo’s have taken on these 2 at their best trips.
Sea the Stars himself is safely tucked in the middle leaving only the AOB squad all running at wrong trips to beat.
However Rip Van Winkle and Goldikova could clash and Sea the Stars could clash and then and only then, when the results are in, can we be sure how good this lot really are.
I had a rethink about all of this and had said Sea the Stars could retire and let others do the work for him but now, to an extent, I think I should take that back.
Although Sea the Stars may not be greatly affected by this at breeding, questions would be asked if: Fame and Glory got stuffed by Conduit (4yo) in the Arc and Goldikova(4yo) slaughters Rip Van Winkle in the Breeders mile.
Oxx should let the horse do his own talking and run him in the Arc, win the damn thing and put any doubts to sleep.
Oxx should let the horse do his own talking and run him in the Arc, win the damn thing and put any doubts to sleep.
And if he wins comfortably then he is without doubt a true Champion! Amen to that! What if Youmzain beats him by a neck?
- Total Posts 17716
CHUM springs to mind
I have to disagree with bbobell’s comments that Sea The Stars has to prove himself on easier going before being mentioned in the same breath as Sir Ivor, Nijinsky , Mill Reef – or indeed, the hero to all those impressionable 80s teenagers, Dancing Brave.
Why does he ? Of those, Sir Ivor and Mill Reef raced on soft ground. Sir Ivor was soundly beaten by Vaguely Noble in the ’68 on soft going, whereas Nijinsky and Dancing Brave were never asked to race in such conditions. It would have been interesting had they done so.
Mill Reef was the only one from that quartet we know for certain acted on any surface – firm or heavy. Made no difference. All surface came alike to him – Ribot and Sea Bird II likewise.
The mere fact that Sea The Stars has won five group 1s in a row, whilst seeing off all the top horses put in front of him – and breaking two course and distance records into the bargain, signifies to me that he more than deserves to be ranked alongside the greats.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
And that’s the very thing we don’t know Friggo. To be a great Horse you gon’t have to beat great horses but you have to beat very decent horses.
That’s fair enough, Fist, but personally I think those who are denying the greatness of Sea The Stars on the trite grounds of "what has he beat?" are, at this stage, failing to see the wood for the trees. The Eclipse and Sussex- probably the two best guages thus far- both suggest that this year’s 3-y-o colts are a good deal ahead of their older contemperies (admittedly that crop may not be a vintage one), the fact Rip simply cuffed a BC Turf winner off a strong pace in the former, giving STS his greatest test to date all the while, conclusive proof that he gets the trip IMO.
(BTW, wasn’t Mill Reef’s 15-length win on bottomless ground, when fields tend to get strung right out? Furthermore, Ian Balding suggested that the horse had a very light action, which made testing conditions a minimal inconvenience)
I have to disagree with bbobell’s comments that Sea The Stars has to prove himself on easier going before being mentioned in the same breath as Sir Ivor, Nijinsky , Mill Reef – or indeed, the hero to all those impressionable 80s teenagers, Dancing Brave. :wink:
Why does he ? Of those, Sir Ivor and Mill Reef raced on soft ground. Sir Ivor was soundly beaten by Vaguely Noble in the ’68 on soft going, whereas Nijinsky and Dancing Brave were never asked to race in such conditions. It would have been interesting had they done so.
Mill Reef was the only one from that quartet we know for certain acted on any surface – firm or heavy. Made no difference. All surface came alike to him – Ribot and Sea Bird II likewise.
The mere fact that Sea The Stars has won five group 1s in a row, whilst seeing off all the top horses put in front of him – and breaking two course and distance records into the bargain, signifies to me that he more than deserves to be ranked alongside the greats.
Whilst I would not dispute your assertion that he has beaten all the top horses put in front of him, all the others did the same but often these great champions did it outside of their comfort zone, eg Nijinsky in the St Leger, Brigadier Gerard in the King George and the Champion Stakes, Dancing Brave in the Arc. To my mind Sea the Stars needs to step out of that comfort and do it when the odds are stacked against him when all that is best in Europe are in against him.
He is a fine horse, but he just does not have that wow factor at present to my mind Lets face it, although he breaks track records, all the O’Brien horses cannot be champions and not all track record holders are champions.
When he wins the Arc with cut in record time then he will be a true great in my view.
If I owned him then 100% certain he’d be at Doncaster this Saturday afternoon making histroy.
- Total Posts 17716
Not if I was the trainer you wouldn’t
The problem they had with the St Leger is 3-fold. 1. Every chance the ground wouldn’t have suited him. 2. He wouldn’t get the trip. 3. AOB would have ran Fame and Glory with the odds stacked in his favour.Sea the Stars next preferred run is The Breeders Classic on dirt but again 1m2f. Not the Arc not the Breeders Cup Turf.
Prize money now is irrelevant whre Sea the Stars is concerned it’s all about keeping the horse within his comfort zone 1m2f period. and not running him over a trip where he’s in much more danger of getting beat.
Looking at the St Leger it makes it look like a walk in the park but once the stamina runs out the whole picture changes in a flash…….how many times do we see horses hit a brick wall like Mastercraftsman did last week?……just nothing left when they do no matter how much class they have.
I think i would not only have the horse away from Doncaster but i would make sure no one mentioned the race around the yard.
The renewals are geting worse and worse every year…not on Group 1 winner in the whole field i think and barely a handful of Group 2 animals.
The race is finished and sooner or later its going to be relegated for the good of the sport.
Its basically the summer Bumper….
Not if I was the trainer you wouldn’t
The problem they had with the St Leger is 3-fold. 1. Every chance the ground wouldn’t have suited him. 2. He wouldn’t get the trip. 3. AOB would have ran Fame and Glory with the odds stacked in his favour.Sea the Stars next preferred run is The Breeders Classic on dirt
but again 1m2f. Not the Arc not the Breeders Cup Turf.
Prize money now is irrelevant whre Sea the Stars is concerned it’s all about keeping the horse within his comfort zone 1m2f period. and not running him over a trip where he’s in much more danger of getting beat.
Looking at the St Leger it makes it look like a walk in the park but once the stamina runs out the whole picture changes in a flash…….how many times do we see horses hit a brick wall like Mastercraftsman did last week?……just nothing left when they do no matter how much class they have.
It’s not on dirt.
If i were his trainer i’d aim him at the arc. Everytime the horse wins a race Oxx says he came out of the race really well and was raring to go again, eating well etc. So who knows, if he won the arc they might have the BCC in mind. Although it’s likely that it will be one of the two.
He’d be running in the Leger if it was up to me as chances to make history like this in racing come along just once every generation or so, either side of the Atlantic.
Winning or losing a Leger shouldn’t harm his stud value any more than losing a BC damaged RoG’s stud value – he started out at about 70k a pop and is now down to 27.5k even though he’s a pretty successful stallion.
If he turns out to be a Kingsgate Native, GH may see his wish of the knackers comming off in prep for Cheltenham, in a year or two.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.