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Sea The Stars is one of the best I have ever seen, He comes on the heels of the horses who ran in 2000 who were some of the most acomploshed of my life time.
For me 2000 was a great year, it was a year when their wer more stars on the track than in the skies.
The mad Montjeu, the handsome and greatly missed Dubai Millenium ( a horse whose passing brought tears to my eyes), thecrack miler Kings Best, the but also pretty quick Sinndar ( he had exelleration as well as guts), the tough grinder Giants Causeway, the quick but big girls blouse (and now top stallon) Dansila, Kalanisi ( tough and brave),Petruska ( fast and sexy,. but a lousy broodmare) Holding Court( a needed it like fontwell bog and now standing in Saudi.Sea The Stars has beaten up a pretty good bunch of colts, while they are not as good as 2000 they are no mugs.
It will be interesting to see Timeform’s new rating for Sea The Stars.
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It will be interesting to see Timeform’s new rating for Sea The Stars.
http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/timeform/timeform-provisionally-rate-sea-the-stars-on-140-060909.html
Here’s what I wrote earlier on the Irish Champion Stakes thread in the ‘Big Races’ section of the forum –
Sea The Stars has now despatched Fame And Glory, Rip Van Winkle and Mstercraftsman at least twice each, despite Ballydoyle trying every tactic possible. Sitting behind, kicking on, making it a test, making it a sprint, nothing has worked and it is safe to say Sea The Stars is head and shoulders above the rest of the three year old milers and middle distance horses.
But the only older scalp he’s taken has been Conduit, over a distance arguably too short for the Stoute horse and when Conduit was likely still not quite 100%, having been presumably been trained for the King George and with the forthcoming stresses of an Autumn campaign in mind.
He’s a ‘great’ all right but not an all-time one. Yet…
Having had a read of the Betfair/Timeform article I can’t have it. Does anyone else on here really believe Fame And Glory is a better horse than Galileo and Sinndar? I think they’re playing with figures in order to accomodate Sea The Stars as an all time great when he hasn’t yet shown that he deserves that accolade. Not crabbing the horse – he is a fantastic beast and I think he is capable or proving that he deserves to be up with the likes of Mill Reef and Shergar but, for me, he still hasn’t proven it fully.
Plus I don’t think Mastercraftsman has really ‘run his race’ in third – he’s a few pounds better than that on York evidence.
I can’t understand why anybody pays attention to ratings anymore. If you weren’t allowed completely fed up of them, surely putting New Approach ahead of Zarkava, Henry and Raven’s Pass was the final straw?
I don’t care if Sea The Stars is rated 110, 130 or 200, he’s an all-time great. The fact he’s not beaten much is irrelevant, he’s proved himself to be extremely versatile and beaten everything he’s raced against with ease on completely different types of going.
Everyone has an opinion on where horses stand on the all time list. But surely thats doing each of the wonderful horses mentioned on this thread a dis-service. The reason we remember these horses as greats are because they each produced excellent performances…ran races that had us marvelling at their abilities.
Sea The Stars hasn’t obliterated his rivals like Shergar or Hawk Wing did on occassion. He hasn’t won races hard held on the bridle like Montjeu. He hasn’t battled toe to toe with horses for 3 furlongs and won by a head like Giants Causeway. However, he has won 5 Group 1’s as a 3yo and beaten every horse he has raced against at various distances.
It could be that his temperament "to do just enough" in his races this year has helped win all those prizes. And its that temperament that I like. Unlike Montjeu and Hawk Wing in recent times, his temperament is first class. Listening to Mick Kinane’s comments after yesterdays win about Sea The Stars’ temperament, of him "agreeing" to win by more than a length for once, it made me think. Is Sea The Stars not only a fast horse, is he an intelligent horse? Perhaps this can mark him out from the rest on the all time list…??
"Zarkava" wrote: I can’t understand why anybody pays attention to ratings anymore. If you weren’t allowed completely fed up of them, surely putting New Approach ahead of Zarkava, Henry and Raven’s Pass was the final straw?
I don’t care if Sea The Stars is rated 110, 130 or 200, he’s an all-time great. The fact he’s not beaten much is irrelevant, he’s proved himself to be extremely versatile and beaten everything he’s raced against with ease on completely different types of going.
Whoa whoa whoa, you’ve just opened a whole new can of worms
Personally, I ignore the ratings, they’re just figures. But New Approach did in my opinion deserve a higher rating than Henrythenavigator and Ravens Pass, not Zarkava though.
We never really got to see the best of him, his Derby win was nothing short of "oh my sweet Lord did that actually just happen" status.
Sea The Stars more than merits his rating. The ease with which he travels throughout his races is comparable with most of the best middle-distance horses we have seen in the last few decades. He picks up and quickens readily when asked the question – only at York did he idle longer than was usual for him – and finds more if and when challenged. The pace of race race doesn’t seem to matter to him – and two course records at Sandown and York bears testament to his abundant class.
Sinndar, winner of the English & Irish Derbys and Arc was also trained by John Oxx, and according to him, Sea The Stars is the better of the two. Make of that what you will. I happen to agree.
That said, I certainly would not place Fame and Glory in front of Sindaar or Galileo, or indeed, beside them – but unlike Cormack, neither do I think that Timeform are simply playing games by upgrading Fame and Glory’s rating simply as a means of justifying Sea The Stars’ rating – a rating which may yet become higher come October.
Sea The Stars is the best I have seen in the last thirty years.
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The problem, Himself, is that if you take Fame And Glory as a 131 horse rather than a 135 horse (and even that may be pushing it) then you have Sea The Stars on 136. Equivalent to Bering, El Gran Senor and Suave Dancer. In my view, on the evidence of the formbook, that is much more like it. I think any one of those three could have done what Sea The Stars has done this season. Doubt many would disagree with that?
For me he has still to produce the Dancing Brave Arc, the Shergar Derby or the Dubai Millenium Dubai World Cup performance which would elevate him to the status of a 140 horse.
I’m not saying he’s not capable, he is magnificent and the manner of his performances would have you confident that he could deliver on any stage. However, and here’s the rub, the formbook evidence to date doesn’t warrant a 140 rating, by any stretch.
I’d love it as much as anyone though if he could go to France and obliterate them.
fame and glory rpr 131
this horse only beat golden sword and mourayan who are at best gr3 horse
explain me please how this horse get 131The simple fact is he has won 5 of the most celebrated races in Europe run this year. The 3yo 1m championship, the 3yo 1m 4f championship, and all 3 of the most prestigious 10f 3yo+ races run in Europe. What’s more he has won them convincingly; traveling beautifully before dominating his rivals, whether they are attacking ahead or behind him.
He has won on a straight mile, on right-handed, left-handed, flat and undulating courses. He is only the fourth horse (besides Coolmore champions Duke of Marmalade, Giant’s Causeway and Rock Of Gibraltar) of the last 25 years to win 5 Group 1s on the trot. He has beaten the winners of the Irish 2000 Guineas, the Irish Derby, the Tattersalls Gold Cup, the King George, the BC Turf and the Sussex Stakes among others.
There still is potentially the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe to come, and even perhaps the BC Classic. With his connections, who knows, even the Hong Kong Cup could be mooted, should they wish, however remote that possibility.
His father was a champion miler who sired Ouija Board. His mother won the Arc. His siblings have won G1s all over the world. He is half-brother to the great champion and (already) super-sire Galileo. He has truly flawless conformation, a perfect constitution and if anyone has ever seen footage of him after a race surrounded by people, an unflappable disposition.
As a racehorse, he is exceptional; as a breeding prospect, utterly priceless.
I don’t particularly care what number Timeform will put after his name. His achievements are timeless.
The simple fact is he has won 5 of the most celebrated races in Europe run this year. The 3yo 1m championship, the 3yo 1m 4f championship, and all 3 of the most prestigious 10f 3yo+ races run in Europe. What’s more he has won them convincingly; traveling beautifully before dominating his rivals, whether they are attacking ahead or behind him.
He has won on a straight mile, on right-handed, left-handed, flat and undulating courses. He is only the fourth horse (besides Coolmore champions Duke of Marmalade, Giant’s Causeway and Rock Of Gibraltar) of the last 25 years to win 5 Group 1s on the trot. He has beaten the winners of the Irish 2000 Guineas, the Irish Derby, the Tattersalls Gold Cup, the King George, the BC Turf and the Sussex Stakes among others.
There still is potentially the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe to come, and even perhaps the BC Classic. With his connections, who knows, even the Hong Kong Cup could be mooted, should they wish, however remote that possibility.
His father was a champion miler who sired Ouija Board. His mother won the Arc. His siblings have won G1s all over the world. He is half-brother to the great champion and (already) super-sire Galileo. He has truly flawless conformation, a perfect constitution and if anyone has ever seen footage of him after a race surrounded by people, an unflappable disposition.
As a racehorse, he is exceptional; as a breeding prospect, utterly priceless.
I don’t particularly care what number Timeform will put after his name. His achievements are timeless.
Well said sir!
The horse is bomb proof – a gift from the racing gods, a glimpse of perfection allowed to us…..
Nothing would get the beast off the bridle in a Leger, nothing would beat him over a mile. Held up or from the front, good going or soft…..
His versatility and the fact that the horse seems to look after himself makes him the most impressive animal to date IMO.
The ultimate horse for racing.
The simple fact is he has won 5 of the most celebrated races in Europe run this year. The 3yo 1m championship, the 3yo 1m 4f championship, and all 3 of the most prestigious 10f 3yo+ races run in Europe. What’s more he has won them convincingly; traveling beautifully before dominating his rivals, whether they are attacking ahead or behind him.
He has won on a straight mile, on right-handed, left-handed, flat and undulating courses. He is only the fourth horse (besides Coolmore champions Duke of Marmalade, Giant’s Causeway and Rock Of Gibraltar) of the last 25 years to win 5 Group 1s on the trot. He has beaten the winners of the Irish 2000 Guineas, the Irish Derby, the Tattersalls Gold Cup, the King George, the BC Turf and the Sussex Stakes among others.
There still is potentially the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe to come, and even perhaps the BC Classic. With his connections, who knows, even the Hong Kong Cup could be mooted, should they wish, however remote that possibility.
His father was a champion miler who sired Ouija Board. His mother won the Arc. His siblings have won G1s all over the world. He is half-brother to the great champion and (already) super-sire Galileo. He has truly flawless conformation, a perfect constitution and if anyone has ever seen footage of him after a race surrounded by people, an unflappable disposition.
As a racehorse, he is exceptional; as a breeding prospect, utterly priceless.
I don’t particularly care what number Timeform will put after his name. His achievements are timeless.
Seconded.
Here’s what I wrote earlier on the Irish Champion Stakes thread in the ‘Big Races’ section of the forum –
Sea The Stars has now despatched Fame And Glory, Rip Van Winkle and Mstercraftsman at least twice each, despite Ballydoyle trying every tactic possible. Sitting behind, kicking on, making it a test, making it a sprint, nothing has worked and it is safe to say Sea The Stars is head and shoulders above the rest of the three year old milers and middle distance horses.
But the only older scalp he’s taken has been Conduit, over a distance arguably too short for the Stoute horse and when Conduit was likely still not quite 100%, having been presumably been trained for the King George and with the forthcoming stresses of an Autumn campaign in mind.
He’s a ‘great’ all right but not an all-time one. Yet…
Having had a read of the Betfair/Timeform article I can’t have it. Does anyone else on here really believe Fame And Glory is a better horse than Galileo and Sinndar? I think they’re playing with figures in order to accomodate Sea The Stars as an all time great when he hasn’t yet shown that he deserves that accolade. Not crabbing the horse – he is a fantastic beast and I think he is capable or proving that he deserves to be up with the likes of Mill Reef and Shergar but, for me, he still hasn’t proven it fully.
Plus I don’t think Mastercraftsman has really ‘run his race’ in third – he’s a few pounds better than that on York evidence.
I’m with you all the way on this one Cormack. Fine horse Sea The Stars is and I will not dispute that, but he still has it to prove and I would like to see him win on ground with a bit of cut, not bottomless heavy or really sticky but genuine ground on the soft side of good.
It figured as part of today’s discussion at lunch in the car park at Burghley Horse Trialos and the feeling between Tony, Woody and me (missus was not involved) was that he needs to show himself on less than perfect ground to be rated with Sir Ivor, Nyjinsky and Mill Reef, even Brigadier Gerrard who won one of His Champion Stakes in an absolute bog – the Rowley Mile at it’s absolute worst.
He is an extremely good horse, but he needs a bit more for an all time great, in my opinion.
If Sea the Stars wins the Arc in the manner he has been winning all season,he will be a True Champion,(i still have a nagging doubt about the trip)! Dancing Brave was visually more impressive in his victorys,he had an Explosive turn of foot,something STS has never shown! STS just does everything easily,all his victorys have come without any drama and you can see the Arc being much the same,held up in 4th place never more than 4 or 5l off the pace,moving up smoothly off the 2nd last bend,then challenging off the last bend and running on gamely (if he truly gets the trip) that is! Dancing Braves Arc was a different story! It still makes me laugh when people think Pat Eddery rode a great race, he rode a sh*t race
had it been any other horse,he would have been 3rd at best,it was the brilliance of the Brave that carried him home after giving him way too much to do! Pat did much the same in the King George when he ran up the backsides of Lady Beaverbrooks pacemakers Dihistan and Boldden as they were approaching the last bend,that is why Dancing idled when he went past Shardari,it was a stop/start sort of a race! Funny thing is how many people think Greville was jocked off after the Derby,they say to this day"Yeh Greville never rode him again after the shocker he gave him in the Derby" and yet Greville rode him in the Eclipse and then again in the Select stakes at Goodwood! I"m afraid there will never be another Dancing Brave,he would have too many gears for Sea the stars over any trip! in my
unbiased opinion!when he ran up the backsides of Lady Beaverbrooks pacemakers Dihistan and Boldden as they were approaching the last bend,
I think you will find Dihistan was the pacemaker for Sharastani and Shardari,all belonging to the Aga Khan! It was Vouchsafe and Boldden who were Petoski"s pacemakers that Lady Beaverbrook owned! 4 pacemakers in a race!!
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