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Roger Charlton

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  • #3013
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    I entirely agree with Roger Charlton’s comments in today’s Post. It is quite wrong that three-year-olds are denied a run in the big handicaps by lower-rated older horses who have more actual weight to carry because of weight-for-age. The Ebor didn’t have a single three-year-old in it this year and more and more of these handicaps are going the same way.

    #77237
    Grey Desire
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    • Total Posts 1877

    It’s not just in the big handicaps.<br>I wasn’t even aware of this until recently when the horse I am involved in (a four year old) had ballot marks for a couple of upcoming races at Wolves (0-60’s).<br>He was lucky to get in and it was only because higher rated 3 year olds had a lower weight due to the weight for age scale.<br>It’s hard enough for any horse to get in a race (especially at the 0-60 level) and to punish 3 year olds is a further example of racing shooting itself in the foot.

    #77238
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3105

    <br>I’d agree with Roger Charlton, but on one condition – no more 3-y-old only handicaps after July 1st each year.

    Yes, 3-y-olds are currently eliminated in favour of older horses with a lower rating, but they also have the option of plenty of valuable handicaps restricted to their age group.

    There are only a tiny number of handicaps at this time in the season that allow older horses to avoid well handicapped and progressive 3-y-olds. It gets a bit wearying entering a 7-y-old stayer for races that are dominated by 3-y-olds – see Yarmouth on Thursday for an example.  

    And I don’t remember Charlton complaining when Patavellian got into the Bunbury Cup thanks to the current system!

    AP

    #77239
    seabird
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    • Total Posts 2924

    Alan, I think that’s called ‘selective memory syndrome’ !

    Colin

    #77240
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    On the subject of weight-for-age, I was interested to see the remarks this week of James Willoughby in the Post and Zorro in the Weekender.

    Previewing the Arc trials, Willoughby wrote: "On fast ground – and receiving the generous weight-for-age allowance which now desperately needs revising – Rail Link may be capable of a passable imitation of Peintre Celebre in three weeks’ time."

    Reviewing the Irish Champion, Zorro said this: "Dylan Thomas did very well to worry [Ouija Board] out of it, getting only 4lb."

    So the wfa scale is either generous to the younger horses (Willoughby) or it’s not (Zorro). A sure sign, for me, that it’s about right.

    #77241
    yeats
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    • Total Posts 2927

    Don’t know about that Gus, think Willoughby is slightly more knowledgeable about the subject than Haigh.

    What is the reasoning supposed to be in doing the runners by weight allotted rather than rating? it’s illogical. If 3 yo’s are allowed in the race they should be treated the same. It’s one of a number of anomalys concerning weights that don’t make sense.<br>Don’t seem to remember Patavellian getting a run in The Bunbury through this anomaly.<br>As there are races confined to 3yo’s so there are for 4yo’s plus.

    #77242
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3105

    <br>Yeats,

    If you can find a race for 4-y-olds and up at 1M 6F or 2M between now and Dec 31st please let me know as I’d like to run in it. I also know that there isn’t one.

    In fact between Oct 1st and Dec 31st, in the entire racing program there’s only one race that excludes 3-y-olds – a 6F 4yo+ 61 – 75 handicap at Wolverhampton on Nov 18th.

    AP

    #77243
    yeats
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    • Total Posts 2927

    Is that the reason they do it ap? <br>Two wrongs don’t make a right, if that’s the case they should have more races for older horses only but 3yo’s should be treated fairly in the races they are allowed to enter.

    #77244
    guskennedy
    Member
    • Total Posts 759

    Quote: from EC on 1:09 pm on Sep. 16, 2006[br]WFA..as we have discussed on this board many times..is very much in favour of 3yo’s from July onwards

    I disagree. It has indeed been discussed but I’ve never seen any evidence to support that conclusion.

    #77245
    Adrian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1041

    In Australia – take Melbourne Cup as an example – they take the weight for age allowance into consideration when ballotting horses out of the handicap.

    Similarly when selecting horses to run in Hong Kong, for example, both weight for age and fillies allowances are taken into consideration.

    #77246
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    Quote: from EC on 2:30 pm on Sep. 17, 2006[br]it’s clearly a nonsense allowing the weight concession

    Are you saying that there shouldn’t be a weight concession at all?

    #77247
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    So, what should a 3-y-o receive from an older horse over, say, 12f in July?

    #77248
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    Do you take the view, then, that Dancing Brave, for example, was never a great champion and was inferior to Shardari? He met Shardari in the 1986 King George and beat him three-quarters of a length when in receipt of 13lbs (i.e. 7lbs more than your wfa scale). Even in the Arc, he received 7bs from Shardari and only beat him about two lengths. Presumably, that’s about 5lbs more than he’d have been allowed on your scale.

    I could pick out hundreds of similar cases given an hour or two with my old form books.

    With the wfa scale you propose the younger horses simply wouldn’t take on their elders. Their trainers would go alternative routes.

    #77249
    guskennedy
    Member
    • Total Posts 759

    Dancing Brave would just have "pulled out more". Hmm. He was all out at Ascot and couldn’t have found another inch.

    "If they are really good though they will still take part." I don’t think so. Lammtarra wouldn’t have had a prayer against Strategic Choice in his King George, receiving just 6lbs instead of 12 nor would he have been up to beating Freedom Cry in the Arc at your suggested weights. Why would his trainer campaign him in races he couldn’t win?

    And Coolmore are in the stallion business. Would they have run Galileo in the King George if Fantastic Light only had to give him 6lbs? Of course not. The scale is set in stone because it’s stood the test of time.

    #77250
    guskennedy
    Member
    • Total Posts 759

    Quote: from EC on 10:40 pm on Sep. 17, 2006[br]I’ll just change my mind..yes Gus you are right..those figures don’t mean anything..you’ve argued a good case there..changed my view completely.

    The last time I heard that sort of reaction to an argument was in the school playground about forty years ago. Grow up and stop taking it all so personally when someone disagrees with you.

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