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<br> :old:
In my honest opinion, weaned through not little experience,<br> monied people rarely if ever help out their relatives,<br> and such a practice particualrly in the gentlemen classes<br> (and not sure if Vestey is in that club<br> but maybe his black and brown shoe rule may convince him)<br> is considered condescending, cheap, and very new money.
Vestey has had the odd horse at Hen’s place<br> and this might be considered token help.<br> <br> As for Hen and Terry, once describned as the posh and wrecked of racing, I am in admiration of the colour they have brought to sometimes bleak mundane race meet.
As for tax avoidance it’s almost the 31st.<br>
Quote: from Seagull on 9:02 am on Jan. 21, 2007[br]However why should we have no choice to pay our taxes when others who are in a far better position to do so employ top lawyers to avoid taxes.<br>
Seagull<br>I’ve been banging on about this everywhere for a long time now.
We now live in a corporatist state – not a democracy. The dark forces who run Big Business (I won’t say "here", because these people don’t really have a country – just the most convenient pied-a-terre at a given time), tell Bliar to jump, and he asks, "How high?"
Oooh! I forgot! Thatcher told us that big government was the "Nanny State". We shouldn’t have our taxes spent  in our own interest, i.e. on a welfare state, we should have it spent on the welfare queens of Big Business, on the CEOs, and shareholders of the big companies, the oil companies, banks, insurance companies, politicians and the Blairite quangocracy. How foolish of us to begrudge them "twos up" on the welfare teat – so that they can take over the Exchequer and turn us into a nation of impoverished, half-starved runts! "
An American on Democratic Underground called Mythsage, put the matter very succinctly: "What makes people think Big Business is more benign than big government?"
Seconded Grimes. To the letter.
Contrast the high profile media campaign against "benefit cheats" with the post earlier regarding the billionaire Vestey’s paying a tenner in tax over a year. And then consider the wider morality. But we digress…
:old: money
I agree with Grimes’s bullets<br> but with a caution to you Max.<br> If people are avoiding tax legally<br> through clever sophisticated loopholes<br> to the detriment<br> of the ordinary taxpayer<br> the government should shoulder the majority of the blame<br> for not closing the allowance possibility.<br> I do believe there is a certain moral burden on how far <br> an individual goes to reduce his or her tax liability<br> – but it wil always be a grey and difficult area<br> and hard to apportion blame, without the fullness of fact<br> and earnings trace
(Edited by gamble at 7:40 pm on Jan. 21, 2007)
Anyone who has noticed for themselves how well Hen’s horses tend to look, not to mention how relaxed and good natured the majority are and can see what a superb training establishment she has built up, coupled with her Grade 1 record [as has been mentioned] would struggle to find a valid point with which to criticise her training methods, IMO. ÂÂÂ
(Edited by Shadow Leader at 1:51 am on Jan. 22, 2007)
Her achievements with a horse called Best Mate were pretty good when you see how choc-full of temperament that family is.
As I have said before, I can’t think of a trainer whose horses are better schooled before their chasing debut
Shadlow leader and Davidjohnson – im afraid i couldn’t agree less.
Her horses have been known to be very immature.
Best Mate was a different horse, different class, a great attitude. Not one of my favourites but any other trainer could have done the same with him.
The only thing i would say for Hen is that she is much better than most with the press. However, i do not think she is much of a trainer. She gets a few nice horses (who anyone could train to win gr1 races). She tries her horses very highly and IMO has no idea what to do with half of the horses she trains.
As I said before Stormont – anyone who sees how well & relaxed Hen’s horses tend to be coupled with her record (and I’m not just talking about Best Mate – she’s won several Grade one races) would struggle to find a valid reason to call her a poor trainer. I have experience of many yards and to visit Hen’s is a joy – everything is so calm & relaxed, the horses are relaxed and happy. There is none of the charging off & messing about as the horses near the gallops – they walk on, trot & hack away calmly without the fuss & hassles that jumping off on the gallops entails in so many other yards; horses trying to whip around, charge off, bucking, kicking, jumping all over the place.
Hen’s horses are also very well schooled at home amd the majority of them display this on the racecourse. Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule; horses who jump poorly despite extensive schooling but you can’t blame the trainer for that!
I’d also say that the amount of winners the yard steadily churn out also testifies to the fact that she can indeed train.
As for "Her horses have been known to be very immature" – your point is? I could point out 20+ immature horses on the racecourse daily! Horses gain maturity through experience and it cannot be forced upon them any more than you can force a child to grow. You can help it along but you can’t have absolute control over it. It also follows that the types of horses Hen tends to look for are going to be immature types – she favours proper NH chasing types that she can look to the future with, not grabbing a fit, hardened whippet from the flat.
Hen and Terry are very experienced horsepeople and it shows when you look at every one of their horses & their training methods. Their methods are the type I admire & I would employ very similar tactics myself. I would also look for the same types of horses they look for – the store horses with a chasing stamp about them. In my mind, having the skill to spot a potential chaser from a raw four year old takes a lot more talent and knowledge than simply spending a fortune on a flat horse, simply because it has won on the flat – there is no guarantee it will be as successful over timber, even take to timber, and the shelf life of the horse is likely to be shorter than that of a store horse brought along slowly.
With respect, the assertion that she "has no idea what to do with half of the horses she trains." is laughable ~ she’d have more idea what to do with them than half the trainers holding licences!
(Edited by Shadow Leader at 12:38 pm on Jan. 23, 2007)
Ha…… everyone i know has left her yard saying they couldnt stand one minute more of it.
You must have gone there on a good day, thats all i can say.
Have you ever worked in a racing yard????????
Stormont ~ you’re an idiot, as you’ve shown here and elsewhere. Stop making a fool of yourself.
Shadow Leader has worked in various top racing yards and ridden out at several others as well as working as stable secretary at one of the more successful Lambourn yards. She is also (as am I) an owner with Hen (and we have both owned horses with several other trainers). Without doubt, Henrietta Knight has the most pristine and perfectly presented yard I have ever seen. Let’s have your credentials.
Quote: from rory on 4:39 pm on Jan. 23, 2007[br]Stormont ~ you’re an idiot, as you’ve shown here and elsewhere. Stop making a fool of yourself.
Shadow Leader has worked in various top racing yards and ridden out at several others as well as working as stable secretary at one of the more successful Lambourn yards. She is also (as am I) an owner with Hen (and we have both owned horses with several other trainers). Without doubt, Henrietta Knight has the most pristine and perfectly presented yard I have ever seen. Let’s have your credentials.
Just because we have differing opinions there is no need to refer to me as an idiot…………. no need to be jealous of somone that knows more than you……… come to Newmarket and i will teach you a few things. I might even buy you a drink if you’re lucky
Stormont :biggrin: :biggrin:
Honey, I wouldn’t suggest that you need to teach Rory a few things or that you know more than him!!!!!
You clearly know different people to me then as I know people who work at Hen’s [quite seperately to being an owner there] who absolutely love it there and say it is a great yard to work at. The proof is in the pudding, dearest – how many times do you see Hen resorting to advertising for staff in the midst of the present climate where there is such a dearth of stable staff? How come people like Andy and Drew (and many others) have been there for years and are quite happy?
It’s really not a persuasive form of debate to feel that rather than answering the questions posed to you in disagreement you have to resort to the old "ever worked in racing, have you? eh? eh?" type of argument. As Rory says I have worked in several yards and ridden out for several more as well as being a trainer’s secretary – in fact from reading your last two posts I would suspect that I was riding racehorses when you were still looking for ways to dodge doing your homework. ;)
Do you have any worthwhile debate to offer on the matter or was that it?
Fair enough, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
What you call a good trainer obviously isn’t what i think. I admire trainers who have a good record in Handicaps because i know how hard it is to place horses in handicaps (when you’re not on the fiddle).
I just feel that (Best Mate aside) the horses she has had could have been just as good, probably better with other trainers.
I understand that she goes out looking for horses and judging their potential from an early age especially chasers and she obviously has a good eye, but that doesn’t mean she is a good trainer, well, not in my opinion anyway.
Emma Lavelle also goes and spends time looking for good horses at a young age but without the backing of bigger owners she isn’t getting same media attention.
Im not saying Hen is one of the worst but i think there are many more better than her than there are worse than her.
This game is all about opinions, there will always be arguments about this sort of thing.
Im not the sort of person that will keep quiet if i do not agree, i voice my opinions, always have done, always will do.
I’m also an owner with Hen and echo Shadow Leader and Rory’s comments. I think it’s fair to say that she does not really aim to have a stable full of good handicappers and what she really wants are top quality chasers. Indeed, at the end of each season she always encourages her owners to sell some horses which are decent but are not going to make the grade. So I think it’s wrong to compare her with a trainer who makes his/her name by trying to win handicaps
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