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It is a simple fact of racing that many horses are in and out of form a lot, particularly those with plenty of speed in their pedigree, as they usually have a lot of quirks in their temperament.
Hawkwing was a quirky horse, but on a day when he was "playing the game" he was absolutely rampant and as a single peice of form I would definitely put his Lockinge above anything RoG achieved in any of his races. The lockinge usually features many horses who are below their best and on the group1 calender isnt the strongest, but lets face it Hawkwing didnt just win it, he absolutely demolished them in a style that you just dont see in Group1 miles, even weak ones.
There are horses who are incredibly consistent and ones that are quirky but absolutely amazing on their day. Some horses are just so much better than the opposition that they will keep unbeaten records, but in some cases such horses can just have easy generations to put to the sword. Rock Of Gibraltar always stood out to me as a good group1 horse who had below average opposition that he was way clear of without being.
IMO there are plenty of champion milers who would have hoofed the Rock, but not a huge amount that I could confidently say could have beaten Hawkwing in that Lockinge.
If Dwayne Chambers was crocked with injury (well hes banned for drugs anyway I think) and can inconsistently run 100 meters in 10 secs (sometimes 12), am I better than him because I can do it in a consistent 11 secs (for the record I probably can’t)?. I would say no, but by the same logic I would say that Hawkwing was better than the Rock.
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If Dwayne Chambers was crocked with injury (well hes banned for drugs anyway I think) and can inconsistently run 100 meters in 10 secs (sometimes 12), am I better than him because I can do it in a consistent 11 secs (for the record I probably can’t)?. I would say no, but by the same logic I would say that Hawkwing was better than the Rock.
B.
There’s the world of difference between Dwayne Chambers regularly running fast times and him running just one that is out of all proprtion to the rest of his races? And he has neither questionable standard times or subjective going allowances to be judged against.
Or maybe Hawk Wing was also on drugs?
Ian,
If you look at the 2000 G they both ran in.
HW and ROG ran in effectively in two seperate races. ROG going to the far rail with HW in the centre.ROG beat Redback (on his side) by around 1 1/2 lengths. To be continued.
Value Is EverythingIan,
If you look at the 2000 G they both ran in (2002)
HW and ROG ran in effectively two seperate races. ROG going to the far rail with HW in the centre.ROG beat Redback (on his side) by around 1 1/2 lengths. Where as HW was clear of his side, after Spencer gave the far side gruop plenty of rope. Finishing with a burst of speed seldom seen at Newmarket.
Mark
Value Is EverythingNot as clear cut as that really, i refer to my previous post – would ROG have been so consistent had he been forced to run over the range of distances and surfaces Hawk Wing did. He would probably have had to had the 2000G been 50 yards longer, and maybe Hawk Wing would have farmed the top mile races.
All maybes of course.
Duke Of Marmalade has run over different distances and going conditions, so has New Approach, so has Zarkava so has Lush Lashes so did Nijinksy, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Oh So Sharp, Salsabil, Grundy, El Gran Senor, Nashwan ………. the list is never ending.
i guess there is a difference between a champion and a horses ability
Hawk wing clearly had a fantastic talent, see his 2 year old days, guineas, lockinge and even derby run but he didnt have the heart it appeared for the game
For me i think the derby run broke his feabile heart
its a shame these days that we dont get to see some guineas winners or milers tackling the derby distance but they did with Hawk wing and it backfired
The rain that fell that day was completely against him and High Chapparel, one of the best derby winners in the past 10years, loved the challenge an stayed every yard. Dont forget he had a world cup winner in Moon Ballad back in third.
For me hawk wing was never the same, despite winning a weak eclipse on his next start
The only means i can justify his amazing lockinge run, other then say they all ran below par, is to suggest that this was his first run of the new season and he had forgotten the pain that a race can bring….he had enough after that and never raised a gallop at Ascot. A similar horse was King of kings, although very nervous, AOB cunningly had his first start of the season in the 2000 guineas where he won and was never the same again as he really didnt love the game.
Horses like that on their first run out in a season are taken un awares and can run close to their ability because they are fresh and been humoured for the previous 4 months…then they remember what its about and dont want to know about it
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TJ
I’d rather believe that AoB realised that the Lockinge is normally the least prestigious and less well-contested of all the all-aged gp1 mile races in the season, and knowing he would be facing a bunch of half-cocked horses with their eyes on better prizes, had him trained to run for his life on that day.
Never, before or since, was he ridden so aggresively, which suggests that Coolmore had put all their eggs in one basket to restore his somewhat tarnished reputation on that day, even at the cost of bottoming him out. The plan came off perfectly against a bunch of half-fit and modest horses, so well in fact, that they even managed to convince a number of ratings compliers that he was some sort of superstar.
TJ
I’d rather believe that AoB realised that the Lockinge is normally the least prestigious and less well-contested of all the all-aged gp1 mile races in the season, and knowing he would be facing a bunch of half-cocked horses with their eyes on better prizes, had him trained to run for his life on that day.
Never, before or since, was he ridden so aggresively, which suggests that Coolmore had put all their eggs in one basket to restore his somewhat tarnished reputation on that day, even at the cost of bottoming him out. The plan came off perfectly against a bunch of half-fit and modest horses, so well in fact, that they even managed to convince a number of ratings compliers that he was some sort of superstar.Well, I always thought that Hawk wing on his day was brilliant. However does one great performance on a given day with all conditions to suit make him a better athlete than less spectacular types like ROG. No way.
People get taken away with precociousness and fail to give consistency and adaptability that credit it deserves. The ironic thing is that the modern race horse is bred more and more to be soft, which is a real heartache for a trainer or an owner. The modern horse is becoming easier to injure, less adaptable to distance and conditions.SHL
Henry and RP should be exactly the same rating imo. RP hasn’t improved nor has Henry regressed, RP was just in front of Henry when they kicked for home. In every other race this season he was behind.. It’s quite plainly obvious if you watch the races they have run against each other. It took Fortune five races to work it out, which is nuts because he’s been saying RP needs a truly run mile.
If they face each other again I think you will see Murtagh and Fortune jostling for position.
HW simply wasn’t as good as the Rock. They met twice, the Rock won twice. He also set a record of 7 G1’s in a row, something horse like the great nijinsky couldn’t manage. All of Hawk Wings G1 wins were in small fields against average G1 horses.
Far too black and white Aragron. Century City, Noverre, Landseer, Reel Buddy? With opposition like that you can hardly crab Hawk Wings Lockinge field whilst praising ROG to such an extent he has achieved more than Nijinsky.
Yeah ok. I’m not necessarily saying that the Rock was better than Nijinsky. On balance you’d probably say Nijinsky was better as were a number of others. In the context of this argument though 7 G1 wins stands up against an 11 length win in the Lockinge.
Aragorn,
When was the second meeting? I only remember the 2000.
Mark
Value Is Everything
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