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Just watched the race again and it sends a shiver down my spine. Cant recall a flat race ever doing that.
Think John Oxx deserves a great deal of credit for keeping STS at the top of his game all summer
I notice that Dancing Brave’s fans are still not having it that Sea The Stars is the superior colt.
Well…
Sea The Stars’ 2,000 Guineas winning time was faster than Dancing Brave’s by 4 seconds and his Arc win on Sunday was a second faster – and his Eclpse win was in turn, much faster.
Yes, I believe Sea The Stars has it !
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I notice that Dancing Brave’s fans are still not having it that Sea The Stars is the superior colt.
Well…
Sea The Stars’ 2,000 Guineas winning time was faster than Dancing Brave’s by 4 seconds and his Arc win on Sunday was a second faster – and his Eclpse win was in turn, much faster.
Yes, I believe Sea The Stars has it !
Whichever horse is best, that is a crazy arguement. Not up to your usual standard. Is Looks Like Trouble better than Kauto Star? Just because Noel Chance’s horse ran the 3m 2f 110yrds at Cheltenham, faster than Nicholls Star.
Times are generally to do with, how fast the going is, what the early pace is, wind speed and direction. Ability is only a small part of the equation. It is difficult enough to compare times on the same day, let alone 25 years apart. John Oxx has been at pains to run STS on a firm, fast surface.
Value Is EverythingWhichever horse is best, that is a crazy arguement. Not up to your usual standard. Is Looks Like Trouble better than Kauto Star? Just because Noel Chance’s horse ran the 3m 2f 110yrds at Cheltenham, faster than Nicholls Star.
Times are generally to do with, how fast the going is, what the early pace is, wind speed and direction. Ability is only a small part of the equation. It is difficult enough to compare times on the same day, let alone 25 years apart. John Oxx has been at pains to run STS on a firm, fast surface.
Neither is it like you, Gingertipster, not to see that I was being slightly ironic, as you were the one who was previously rather fond of citing race times as a more accurate guide to gauge one horse against another – whereas I am sure I stated that there are many factors which must be taken into consideration.
You often used Sea Bird’s slower times as stick with which to beat him – so where is the consistency in your arguments, or for that matter, your remonstrations. But I agree, race times are not the be all and end all – nor should they be – though many Dancing Brave enthusiasts are prone to using this device on a regular basis by which to boost his "greatness", whilst, at the same time, denigrating other great horses – hence my ironic comment, vis-a – vis Sea The Stars.
Even so, and allowing for that, I would have to place STS above the great Harwood colt.
Ian Balding, who until the other day, would not so much as entertain the idea that Mill Reef had any superiors, has now gone on record to say that he now firmly believes that Sea The Stars is the best he has ever seen – although he did admit that he did not see Ribot or Sea Bird’s Arc wins.
We all have our favourites Gingertipster. I’m sure you do too. Of course it is impossible to know for certain which horse would have come out on top and who truly was the best of all. The same arguments prevail among fans of other sports – the best golfer, best racing driver, best tennis player, best footballer etc.
If only we had a time machine, eh?
Does anyone have Dr Who’s phone number?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
If only we had a time machine, eh?
Does anyone have Dr Who’s phone number?
Craig Braddick will have it!
Reet – No regarding Conduit. His master rating remains 130 (gained at the Breeders Cup and in this year’s King George. His Eclipse effort remains 5 lb short of that.
In the Eclipse Conduit beat Cima De Triomphe and Steele Tango by 5 and 8 lengths
In the King George he bested Tartan Bearer, Ask and Alwaary by approz 1and3/4, 2 and 5 lengths.Cima De Triomphe’s OR is 116
Alwaary’s is 118I know it’s not an exact science but I for one refuse to believe that Conduit has run 5lbs below his best in the Eclipse. Two, maybe three pounds tops.
All of the palaver about which horse has ran the fastest times makes me laugh. I’m just gonna blame it all on Youmzain!
Anyway …
Sea The Stars is certainly the best horse I’ve seen
since
Dancing Brave and but I think they’re very similar in spirit. Both horses were amiable in nature, could go with any pace and were versatile regarding distance (I strongly believe that both STS and DB would’ve stayed the St Leger distance but I do think that the latter could’ve been a sprinter too).
Also, both appeared to do ‘just enough’ after hitting the front … although DB idled. Regarding this, I do think that STS had bigger heart to battle back as he showed in the Eclipse while DB nearly gave me a heart attack when he idled in the King George.What I adore about STS is the fact that nothing fazes him and he has more gears than a range rover. His Arc was proof of this as he sliced through the field with anaesthetizing strides and the race was instantly over. A cool gladiator he is! I’m now beginning to think that the Breeder’s Cup is there for the taking for Sea The Stars.
Dancing Brave, on the other hand, appeared to have fewer gears but possessed a nitrus oxide boost instead so to speak. With him, it was like "light the fuse and stand back" as his races unfolded. I’ve never seen a horse with such a ferocious finish like DB … he captured my imagination more with his spectacular wins.
Thing is folks, I’m always gonna love this argument about our favourite horses because it brings out our passion for racing and the admiration for our equine heroes/heroines we’ll love to our dying days …
Ya know, if God decided to put us all out of our misery and, somehow, created the ultimate race regarding the 140+ warriors of the flat, there’d be a colossal amount of disappointed people due to the result of the race … and then what?
First things first; Hold my hands up time.
Sea the Stars is the best horse I have ever seen in the flesh, of that there is no question. The way he dispatched of the opposition on Sunday was magical and is fully deserved of all the praise that is bestowed upon him. When I saw him sweating in front of my eyes I really thought it was a race too far.
He had plenty against him in the Arc (including his Dosage rating) but in winning in the manner he did he showed how far ahead of the current crop he really is.
When a true great like STS comes along most form, statistics and trends angles can be tossed aside.
A superstar colt, regardless of any rating he may be given, I was privileged to be track side at Longchamp on Sunday.
Regards
Ben Aitken
Hi Ben
He had plenty against him in the Arc (including his Dosage rating)
Sea The Stars’ Granddam Allegretta’s Dosage numbers are
0-2-8-4-2 (16) DI = 0.60 CD = -0.38However, Allegretta provides NOTHING to Sea The Stars’ Dosage rating, because all her Chefs-de-Race are in her 3rd and 4th generation, and therefore in Sea The Stars’ 5th & 6th generation, and therefore not counted.
This is a case of looking behind the numbers.
Or alternatively, looking at other numbers as well. For instance, Rip Van Winkle and Sea The Stars came out as the two most stamina-laden horses in the Derby, according to Conduit Mare Profile!
Gerald
Good evening Gerald
The way Dosage looks at pedigree (and I agree with this view) is that past the 4th generation the influence of any stallions is not strong enough to have an effect on the foal. Like humans, the further down the bloodline an ancestor is, the less the effect they have. We could look "behind the numbers" all day, although you are correct in that not every statistic should be taken at face value.
You do raise a valid point with regards to the Conduit Mare Profile. My book is not stating that Dosage is the be all and end all of trend analysis, merely just another angle.
Regards
By a coincidence, the same thing applies to Sea The Stars’ other nan, Park Appeal. So, in this instance, Dosage is only taking figures from half of the four grandparents.
Dosage is useful when horses are trying a new trip, but perhaps we should ignore it in the Arc for a horse that has already won the Derby. (I’ve got a mate who insists that the Arc suits 10f horses, because of all the bends.)
I wouldn’t say ignore it.
I don’t look at Dosage just as a tool to determine if a horse would stay a certain distance. I also use it to see if a horse is suited to a particular race; that includes track, typical going, class of race as well as distance.
The Arc had fairly robust Dosage trends and STS was a Dosage buster. In all honesty STS probably has so much class there isn’t much that could stop him.
Interesting theory regarding 10f horses and the bends. May be something in that although it is quite a demanding straight at Longchamp, a non stayer would likely struggle.
Yeah you don’t get much rest around 2400m at Longchamp. 900m straight (450m real 450m false) and just the 1 consistent bend. Willie Carson mentioned how wide the home straight is but you really need to go there and look at it from above to understand just how wide. You get everything behind you snapping at your heels constantly (unless you’re in the Sea The Stars-Zarkava-Dancing Brave et al bracket) and non-stayers do get found out.
Ascot is much twistier and is pretty uneven too, so in theory the King George should suit 10f going by your friend’s theory.
Just want to say: It was a great race, so exciting and with winner who is a real legend. Sea The Stars is the best horse I’ve ever seen. He impressed me again and again and I hope will stay on the track also in the next year.
By the way, I’ve made a homage for Sea The Star "A Champion becomes a Legend":
That was brilliant. I usually tape most of the big races but, for some reason haven’t done so this year. It was wonderful to see all of his races. However, just as I’d started to recover from being an emotional wreck on Sunday it’s got me crying again.
we can now say that sea the stars is one of the best ever seen , he showed a great turn of foot at the end , hope they ll retire him now he has nothing to prove
youmzain : fantastic race horse , his owner must be delighted to have such a consistent animal
cavalryman ; ran a great race , lost energy with that wide draw , he ll better at 4
conduit : not suited by the slow early pace , keen during the race , he will be very hard to beat in the breeders cup turf
the disapointement of the race was vision d etat , who ran no sort of race .
da remi confirmed that she is better than stacelita
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