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Posts
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33
deaths are in the whole meeting, ie
3
day
meeting not just
1 race
:
7
were in
hurdle
races.
1
in a
FLAT RACE
!
25
over fences.
Of those 25 over fences, just9
were in the
Grand National
.
479 horses ran in the Grand National in those 12 years
.
9 out of 479 means 9 ‘/, 479 = 0.0188. A1.88%
attrition rate
!!!
Some other statistics for you.
Of the
9
fatalities, only
5 “fell”
.
5 ‘/, 479 = 0.008
. These photos look disturbing, but just
0.8%
of runners died from "falling".
4
did not hit the deck.
3
unseated their jockey and ran loose,
1
was pulled up on the run-in.
Value Is EverythingWhere have all these hand-wringing bleeding hearts been when other horses in other races (including flat races) over the years, have been fatally injured? Not many weeks go by in the NH season without one. Outside of the game, most pass unremarked. Is most of it just bandwagon jumping due to the adverse publicity?
All jump races (in fact all equestrian sports) are dangerous and carry risk. Always have been, always will be. A young horse broke a leg in a flat race the other day. Very sad, but that’s the way it goes.
Most of these horses love what they do. If not they wouldn’t do it. People who say they are "forced to risk their lives" obviously did not witness Chaninbar refuse 2 days running to take part in a race. You can’t make them do it if they don’t want to!
I would be more worried about Chaninbar’s future than any horse taking part in a jump race. I hope his attitude is found to be down to some curable problem, or his future in racing will be over, and after that who knows what will happen to him? Will these antis be wringing their hands about him? I doubt it.
The Becher Chase would seem to provide a demonstration of whether a smaller field and softer ground would reduce the percentage of fallers.
But the evidence doesn’t really support the theory, as the last ten running have had an average field of 15.6, and the average number of fallers is 6.3. Slightly better than the National, but there are eight fewer fences to be jumped in the Becher.
And any recent changes haven’t helped either as the highest percentage of fallers was this season, with 10/17 failing to complete.
AP
Aren’t there many things that effect the number of fallers?
This year the ground was fast, second fastest of all time. When horses jump fences faster, they are more likely to fall / make mistakes.
In the Topham / Foxhunter / Becher the shorter course means they go faster over the obstacles.I’d suggest number of runners do effect the amount of fallers / unseated / brought down, in a negative way. Number of fences also effects fallers negatively. Where as the slower pace of the National compared to a shorter race – effects the number of fallers in a positive manner and helps bring the figures together.
Recent changes have meant horses going faster over the obstacles. In recent years watrering has helped them go slower, this year they did not water enough.
Value Is EverythingI would be more worried about Chaninbar’s future than any horse taking part in a jump race. I hope his attitude is found to be down to some curable problem, or his future in racing will be over, and after that who knows what will happen to him? Will these antis be wringing their hands about him? I doubt it.
I believe Channinbar has been banned from racing.
Value Is EverythingGinger,
Do you ever slow down and take time to think before you post. Because your last effort makes no sense at all.
And it’s ‘affect’ not ‘effect’.
AP
Eddie,
You’d rather see horses jump a fence knowing there is another horse laying dead or suffering on the other side? Risk of horse landing on horse / jockey. There’d be even more uproar.
When Brown Trix fell back in to Bechers in the Eighties, people tried to pull the stricken horse out of the way for the next circuit. It looked a lot worse than diverting around a fence.Gingertipster,
How ever did they manage in previous years? No, I would prefer things dealt with in the way they were done previous to this year with no bypassing of fences.
As you highlighted the R5 phone in on the subject, no doubt you heard Andrew Tulloch state on it that they would not be having the discussion on the subject if Aintree hadn’t changed the way they deal with stricken horses this year, what a mistake!
All they have done is made the stricken horses the centre of attention and made the fences less wide thus creating more bunching.
An own goal if ever there was one and such a shame after the way the meeting has been so well run apart from that.(D) Animal Aid should be prosecuted for incitement to Breach of the Peace, under the Public Order Act. The calculated way in which these people use the race to further their own agenda is the most sickening thing of all.
If something is not done to counter these evil people effectively, then goodbye to the National – and NH Racing in this country will not last another 53 years.
Unfortunately no such offence exists.
Breach of the Peace is a Common Law matter which must now fall within the definition of R v Howell:-
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/breac … -peace.htm
Incitement used to relate to crimes, not Common Law matters, but was abolished in 2008:-
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/inchoate_offences/
I don’t know too much about Animal Aid but their website refers to "peaceful protest"- I can’t see anything referring to violent criminal direct action:-
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/AA/HOME/
You obviously disagree with their views and describe them as "evil people" .
Unfortunately for you the police and Crown Prosecution Service cannot lock them up for no reason.
In the 60’s/70s the average grand prix driver faced significantly worse odds and still queued up to drive. Between 1963 and 1973 if a driver raced for five years or more he was more likely to lose his life than to survive and retire.
It’s a difficult one. It’s hard to find a response to the non racing fan who counters with, " ah, but racehorses don’t have a choice, people do ! "
For all the doubting, the reservations and the regrets over the fatalities that do occur in racing, particulary National Hunt racing, who among us; and let’s be brutally honest here, would say, you know what, that’s it, I’m done with horse-racing.
Very few, if any, I would venture.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
The Becher Chase would seem to provide a demonstration of whether a smaller field and softer ground would reduce the percentage of fallers.
But the evidence doesn’t really support the theory, as the last ten running have had an average field of 15.6, and the average number of fallers is 6.3. Slightly better than the National, but there are eight fewer fences to be jumped in the Becher.
And any recent changes haven’t helped either as the highest percentage of fallers was this season, with 10/17 failing to complete.
AP
Aren’t there many things that effect the number of fallers?
This year the ground was fast, second fastest of all time. When horses jump fences faster, they are more likely to fall / make mistakes.
In the Topham / Foxhunter / Becher the shorter course means they go faster over the obstacles.I’d suggest number of runners do effect the amount of fallers / unseated / brought down, in a negative way. Number of fences also effects fallers negatively. Where as the slower pace of the National compared to a shorter race – effects the number of fallers in a positive manner and helps bring the figures together.
Recent changes have meant horses going faster over the obstacles. In recent years watrering has helped them go slower, this year they did not water enough.
AP,
I am sorry my post was not up to standard, listening to BBC 5 live at the time.
If I have understood you correctly:
You are suggesting the number of horses does not adverselyA
ffect the percentage of fallers. Quite rightly pointing out The Becher – having 8 fewer fences – should be taken in to account when comparisons are made with percentages. Fewer fences in the Becher means fewer non-completions.
I am suggesting the faster pace of the Becher, Topham and Foxhunter should also be taken in to account when comparing them to the National – regards numbers of runners affecting percentage of non-completions. Faster pace in the Becher = more non-completions.
The affect of 8 fewer fences in one race is to some extent nullified by a faster pace.
And also AP, you say the recent changes haven’t helped either, illustrated by this season’s number failing to complete.
I am saying this season is not a race to judge the recent "improvements" on, due to the racecourse under watering – faster pace. Faster pace means more fallers / unseated / pulled up.
Pace of the races concerned need to be taken in to account when comparing how the number of horses affects a race.
If anyone does not understand any point I try to make, please say and will try to make it in a more understandable genre.
P.S.
Sorry about the grammar. I understand how you feel, I get frustrated by people not knot knowing their their, there, and they’res. But hey, this is no grammar competition. Don’t want to discourage anyone from posting.Value Is EverythingGinger,
Do you ever slow down and take time to think before you post. Because your last effort makes no sense at all.
And it’s ‘affect’ not ‘effect’.
AP
Do you slow down AP?
Shouldn’t there be a "
?
" in your question?
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
If something is not done to counteract racing fans who white ant the sport from within we’ll all be disgussing the need to put pedestrian bridges across every road at 100m intervals for human safety. There wont be anything else to talk about. When you knock down the first few dominoes the rest follow quite easily. The way some of you pass emotionally driven comment leads me to think that soon enough insanity will prevail and there will be no racing left.
It’s only natural we get a bit more squirmish as we get older and our own mortality comes sharply into focus. You cannot sanitise life simply because of a fear of dying though. You just end up never living in the first place.
You’d think some people here have never watched a nature channel and seen what happens to flight animals in the wild. No racing professional I’ve ever met wants to lose a horse. Sadly it happens from time to time. A much crueller fate awaits horses without racing. The nobility of the beast will wane and horses will be nothing more than pet food or a chinese delicacy.
You can bring up all sorts of statistics suggesting that X or Y is the relevant factor in fatalaties of horses in jumps racing. You can make all the changes you like as a result of lobbying. You will not change one simple fact. Horses will die. They’ll do it galloping in a race, jumping in a cross country contest, rearing up in a stable, cantering in a field and simply going for a walk. Those close to nature and working with horses every day know these pitfalls and accept starkness of certain realities. It’s a shame many commenting here are so far out of touch.
When you think about those involved in horse racing consider the following. How cruel is the cat owner that lets their pussy wander outside onto the street only for it to be hit by a car? Is the owner responsible for reckless endangerment by letting a cat outside at all in a built up area? Never mind the cars though, since the ban on fox hunting the local vixens have multiplied en masse and have taken a real shine to domesticated felines. There’s a victory for animal rights!
Someone was asking me yesterday if the fences were narrower now, and I didn’t know the answer. If that is the case, and Bechers is narrower, then surely they should have fewer runners. Having said that, I’m sure that when Bechers was a far more fearsome obstacle than it is now very few horses jumped it on the inside; they all seem to crowd there now. Then again, if narrow fences cause problems they all seem to sail over The Chair these days. I fear that, whenever someone comes up with a bright idea to make things safer it just causes another problem.
Someone was asking me yesterday if the fences were narrower now, and I didn’t know the answer. If that is the case, and Bechers is narrower, then surely they should have fewer runners. Having said that, I’m sure that when Bechers was a far more fearsome obstacle than it is now very few horses jumped it on the inside; they all seem to crowd there now. Then again, if narrow fences cause problems they all seem to sail over The Chair these days. I fear that, whenever someone comes up with a bright idea to make things safer it just causes another problem.
thats the point ive wrote in other threads, since making bypassing necessary they seem to have made the fences less in width, and with a field of 40 it just doesn’t make sense
vf
to note bob champion is on the alan tichmarsh show tonight talking about the grand national
vf
- Total Posts 17716
I don’t know too much about Animal Aid but their website refers to "peaceful protest"- I can’t see anything referring to violent criminal direct action
No. We get pictures of fluffy lambs, fluffy puppies, fluffy monkeys, vegan iced buns and a top headline which reads
"Two horses killed at Aintree: Grand National ‘equivalent to Spanish bullfighting’"
.
These people are not stupid. They are clever manipulators. They are good at PR. They know when to go for the jugular. They know precisely how to distance themselves from the illegal activities which go on in the murky shadows. The same might be said of many other organisations determined to impose their fundamentalist views on the rest of society.
I’m not one to use "evil" without care, Lingfield. But what these people aim for, and the means by which they pursue those aims, allows for no other description. "Encouraging or assisting crime" (the new version of Incitement) covers the kind of verbal encouragements in which they excel, as well as physical threat. We need to challenge these people, and get better at vigorous PR to counter the slow drip of their poison into the public bloodstream.
And if we want to secure NH Racing for future generations, we need not be apologetic about it.
Ginger,
Let’s stick to the Becher, which was the only race I mentioned. You claim it must be run at a faster pace because it’s a shorter race. I’d respond by pointing out that it’s invariably run in soft round because it’s in late November, so I’d say it’s run at a slower pace.
The average secs/furlong figure for the two races supports my view, assuming of course that the official distances are accurate.
Becher Nov 2010 3M 2F 7 nins 5 secs Pace 16.35 secs/fur
National Apr 2011 4M 4F 9 mins 1 sec Pace 15.03 secs/fur
So the the ten fallers from seventeen starters in the 2010 Becher weren’t due to a faster pace – agreed?
Then you argue that the Becher only has 22 fences, so should have fewer fallers than the National over 30 fences, even though you’ve acknowledged Bosranic’s evidence that almsot all falls in the National happen up to second Bechers, which just happens to be the 22nd fence in the National.
All I’m trying to do is point out that on the basis of ten years evidence from the Becher, suggestions on reducing the field size in the National, or running it on softer ground, won’t necessarily reduce the number of fallers.
And so long as you have fallers, you have the risk of fatalities, whether it’s in the Grand National or a 2M chase round a country track.
AP
Well said, Pinza. I can vouch for the fact that Animal Aid have a very busy, prolific press office. We who know and love racing can easily dismiss their arguments as laughably flimsy, but they are very adept at capitalising on events such as Saturday’s to push their extremist agenda.
And it is extremist. This mob don’t want to stop at the Grand National, they would like all racing abolished.
I’m glad to see people like Julian Thick standing up and offering a robust defence of Aintree’s efforts to make the race as safe as it can possibly be.
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