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We could argue until the cows come home over whether such and such a great horse from one era could have beaten another great champion from a different era.
The annoying thing is that we will never find out one way or another.
So frustrating, isn’t it ?
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You can’t blame connections for retiring her really. Is she a "great"? Certainly. She is THE best horse of her particular generation from a mile to a mile and a half and she’s slammed the best of what’s around without even being shown the whip in the Arc. She is unbeaten and never even looked like being beaten. She’s a great alright and the best filly I’ve ever seen (started watching mid 80’s).
Having said that would Dancing Brave or anything else stand up to a finish like that from a filly who after all would be getting weight from them? I have my doubts.
I think it’s more the question of – Would Zarkava stand up to the finish of Dancing Brave? I doubt it! For God’s sake, DB had the ferocious finishing speed of a 6 furlong sprinter.
I just cannot see how any horse could do to DB what DB did to other horsesHaving said that would Dancing Brave or anything else stand up to a finish like that from a filly who after all would be getting weight from them? I have my doubts.
I think it’s more the question of – Would Zarkava stand up to the finish of Dancing Brave? I doubt it! For God’s sake, DB had the ferocious finishing speed of a 6 furlong sprinter.
I just cannot see how any horse could do to DB what DB did to other horsesTo be honest as good as he was I wouldn’t rate DB that highly in my hall of fame. I much prefered Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Nijinsky who were more balanced individuals if you follow my drift.
Sea Bird II was in a different league to any horse I ever saw. He did it so perfectly unlike Dancing Brave who had a more eratic style of running.
Sea Bird II never looked flusterd and just cruised past everything with such ease you would swer they were standing still.
Dancing Brave did the business ok but he had to be shaken up to get him into top gear.
Zarkava had that same thing as Sea Bird II about her and that’s what caught my eye when I first saw her.
One should remember her jockey never really had to get after her in any of her races. He just pushed the button and the response was instant. Once in front you could see she was still not in full flow and always won easily. She reminds me a lot of the old horse and I wouldn’t underate what she achieved nor would I be so quick to say she wasn’t in the class of Dancing Brave.
If push came to shove I would be temepted to say she was the better.
I love class horses and nothing pleases me more than watching them at the top of their form. I’m afraid I was never a huge fan of Dancing Brave who I consider to have been a bit overrated.
For a horse who lost in the Derby, won a not to great King George by a length and had 10 bells knocked out of him for 2 furlongs by Pat Eddery when winning the Arc I doubt if he was as good as you think.
Zarkava is top class running right handed on good / g/s ground in France. How would she have handled Epsom? Roll on the Coronation Cup…or maybe not. Such a shame, i could have seen her dominating the middle distances next year, stuffing the Derby winner in the KG and going down as one of the greats. Can’t happen now.
I must say that I agree entirely with Fist of Fury’s latest post – albeit that Zarkava (good as she was) wouldn’t have got a sniff of Sea Bird’s backside.
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Having said that would Dancing Brave or anything else stand up to a finish like that from a filly who after all would be getting weight from them? I have my doubts.
I think it’s more the question of – Would Zarkava stand up to the finish of Dancing Brave? I doubt it! For God’s sake, DB had the ferocious finishing speed of a 6 furlong sprinter.
I just cannot see how any horse could do to DB what DB did to other horsesTo be honest as good as he was I wouldn’t rate DB that highly in my hall of fame. I much prefered Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Nijinsky who were more balanced individuals if you follow my drift.
Sea Bird II was in a different league to any horse I ever saw. He did it so perfectly unlike Dancing Brave who had a more eratic style of running.
Sea Bird II never looked flusterd and just cruised past everything with such ease you would swer they were standing still.
Dancing Brave did the business ok but he had to be shaken up to get him into top gear.
Zarkava had that same thing as Sea Bird II about her and that’s what caught my eye when I first saw her.
One should remember her jockey never really had to get after her in any of her races. He just pushed the button and the response was instant. Once in front you could see she was still not in full flow and always won easily. She reminds me a lot of the old horse and I wouldn’t underate what she achieved nor would I be so quick to say she wasn’t in the class of Dancing Brave.
If push came to shove I would be temepted to say she was the better.
I love class horses and nothing pleases me more than watching them at the top of their form. I’m afraid I was never a huge fan of Dancing Brave who I consider to have been a bit overrated.
For a horse who lost in the Derby, won a not to great King George by a length and had 10 bells knocked out of him for 2 furlongs by Pat Eddery when winning the Arc I doubt if he was as good as you think.
The fact that Dancing Brave never won the Derby is probably why many people don’t rank him alongside the likes of Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Nijinsky. The question I often ask myself is … could any of those four had won the 1986 Derby from the position Dancing Brave was in? I somehow doubt it.
I do, to some extent, agree with you that Dancing Brave wasn’t an easy ride, may have had difficulty with a left-handed track and idled if he was left in front for too long. There is however, no getting away from the fact that, once he hit top gear, he was like a tsunami … the way how he rapidly put a four length margin over his rivals in a few strides in the Eclipse was terrific. Whatever one may think of him, Dancing Brave would’ve been formidable opposition for any horse and I don’t think he’s overrated at all.
Sea Bird ll was before my time but, having looked at one or two of his races, I do agree that he looked the real deal. He has the highest rating of 145 and the ease of his Arc win may never be bettered.
Kindest regards
I must say that I agree entirely with Fist of Fury’s latest post – albeit that Zarkava (good as she was) wouldn’t have got a sniff of Sea Bird’s backside.
If she did I would love to own the foal
Having said that would Dancing Brave or anything else stand up to a finish like that from a filly who after all would be getting weight from them? I have my doubts.
I think it’s more the question of – Would Zarkava stand up to the finish of Dancing Brave? I doubt it! For God’s sake, DB had the ferocious finishing speed of a 6 furlong sprinter.
I just cannot see how any horse could do to DB what DB did to other horsesTo be honest as good as he was I wouldn’t rate DB that highly in my hall of fame. I much prefered Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Nijinsky who were more balanced individuals if you follow my drift.
Sea Bird II was in a different league to any horse I ever saw. He did it so perfectly unlike Dancing Brave who had a more eratic style of running.
Sea Bird II never looked flusterd and just cruised past everything with such ease you would swer they were standing still.
Dancing Brave did the business ok but he had to be shaken up to get him into top gear.
Zarkava had that same thing as Sea Bird II about her and that’s what caught my eye when I first saw her.
One should remember her jockey never really had to get after her in any of her races. He just pushed the button and the response was instant. Once in front you could see she was still not in full flow and always won easily. She reminds me a lot of the old horse and I wouldn’t underate what she achieved nor would I be so quick to say she wasn’t in the class of Dancing Brave.
If push came to shove I would be temepted to say she was the better.
I love class horses and nothing pleases me more than watching them at the top of their form. I’m afraid I was never a huge fan of Dancing Brave who I consider to have been a bit overrated.
For a horse who lost in the Derby, won a not to great King George by a length and had 10 bells knocked out of him for 2 furlongs by Pat Eddery when winning the Arc I doubt if he was as good as you think.
The fact that Dancing Brave never won the Derby is probably why many people don’t rank him alongside the likes of Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Nijinsky. The question I often ask myself is … could any of those four had won the 1986 Derby from the position Dancing Brave was in? I somehow doubt it.
I do, to some extent, agree with you that Dancing Brave wasn’t an easy ride, may have had difficulty with a left-handed track and idled if he was left in front for too long. There is however, no getting away from the fact that, once he hit top gear, he was like a tsunami … the way how he rapidly put a four length margin over his rivals in a few strides in the Eclipse was terrific. Whatever one may think of him, Dancing Brave would’ve been formidable opposition for any horse and I don’t think he’s overrated at all.
Sea Bird ll was before my time but, having looked at one or two of his races, I do agree that he looked the real deal. He has the highest rating of 145 and the ease of his Arc win may never be bettered.
Kindest regards
The thing about racing is it is not all about how a horse finishes. The huge difference between Sea Bird II and a horse like Danciing Brave is the former travelled so well and got there so easy he would certainly have won any Derby you care to mention including the one DB lost.
If it wasn’t for his existance Meadow Court would probably be up there in the memories of many punters. He won the Irish Derby and King George in great style and was second in the St Leger. Prior to the Epsom Derby Lester wouldn’t hear of him being beaten yet Sea Bird II made him look very ordinary.
My problem with Dancing Brave was nothing to do with his power packed finish it was to do with his obvious flat point in his races. He just took too long to get going to be regarded as an all time great. Horse like Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Nijinsky would be gone before he got going IMO.
I am not saying he was a slower finiher or am I saying he was a faster finisher but when you look at the toe Zarkava showed without being smacked about I would think she would have ebeen in the winners enclosure before Dancing Brave got into second gear.
I do agree with Himself though by the time she was in the winners enclosure Sea Bird would be half way through his supper
Of course there is no real way of telling but for me I can pick holes in Dancing Brave but where Sea Bird II or Zarkava are concerned I am damned if I could pick a single fault with either.
2nd from her Arc was 2nd in the Coronation Cup.
5th from her Arc has just won the Prince of Wales’.
6th from her Arc won the Coronation Cup.
9th from her Arc won the Brigadier Gerard Stakes beating the St. Leger winner.Having said that would Dancing Brave or anything else stand up to a finish like that from a filly who after all would be getting weight from them? I have my doubts.
I think it’s more the question of – Would Zarkava stand up to the finish of Dancing Brave? I doubt it! For God’s sake, DB had the ferocious finishing speed of a 6 furlong sprinter.
I just cannot see how any horse could do to DB what DB did to other horsesTo be honest as good as he was I wouldn’t rate DB that highly in my hall of fame. I much prefered Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Nijinsky who were more balanced individuals if you follow my drift.
Sea Bird II was in a different league to any horse I ever saw. He did it so perfectly unlike Dancing Brave who had a more eratic style of running.
Sea Bird II never looked flusterd and just cruised past everything with such ease you would swer they were standing still.
Dancing Brave did the business ok but he had to be shaken up to get him into top gear.
Zarkava had that same thing as Sea Bird II about her and that’s what caught my eye when I first saw her.
One should remember her jockey never really had to get after her in any of her races. He just pushed the button and the response was instant. Once in front you could see she was still not in full flow and always won easily. She reminds me a lot of the old horse and I wouldn’t underate what she achieved nor would I be so quick to say she wasn’t in the class of Dancing Brave.
If push came to shove I would be temepted to say she was the better.
I love class horses and nothing pleases me more than watching them at the top of their form. I’m afraid I was never a huge fan of Dancing Brave who I consider to have been a bit overrated.
For a horse who lost in the Derby, won a not to great King George by a length and had 10 bells knocked out of him for 2 furlongs by Pat Eddery when winning the Arc I doubt if he was as good as you think.
The fact that Dancing Brave never won the Derby is probably why many people don’t rank him alongside the likes of Sea Bird II, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Nijinsky. The question I often ask myself is … could any of those four had won the 1986 Derby from the position Dancing Brave was in? I somehow doubt it.
I do, to some extent, agree with you that Dancing Brave wasn’t an easy ride, may have had difficulty with a left-handed track and idled if he was left in front for too long. There is however, no getting away from the fact that, once he hit top gear, he was like a tsunami … the way how he rapidly put a four length margin over his rivals in a few strides in the Eclipse was terrific. Whatever one may think of him, Dancing Brave would’ve been formidable opposition for any horse and I don’t think he’s overrated at all.
Sea Bird ll was before my time but, having looked at one or two of his races, I do agree that he looked the real deal. He has the highest rating of 145 and the ease of his Arc win may never be bettered.
Kindest regards
The thing about racing is it is not all about how a horse finishes. The huge difference between Sea Bird II and a horse like Danciing Brave is the former travelled so well and got there so easy he would certainly have won any Derby you care to mention including the one DB lost.
If it wasn’t for his existance Meadow Court would probably be up there in the memories of many punters. He won the Irish Derby and King George in great style and was second in the St Leger. Prior to the Epsom Derby Lester wouldn’t hear of him being beaten yet Sea Bird II made him look very ordinary.
My problem with Dancing Brave was nothing to do with his power packed finish it was to do with his obvious flat point in his races. He just took too long to get going to be regarded as an all time great. Horse like Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Nijinsky would be gone before he got going IMO.
I am not saying he was a slower finiher or am I saying he was a faster finisher but when you look at the toe Zarkava showed without being smacked about I would think she would have ebeen in the winners enclosure before Dancing Brave got into second gear.
I do agree with Himself though by the time she was in the winners enclosure Sea Bird would be half way through his supper
Of course there is no real way of telling but for me I can pick holes in Dancing Brave but where Sea Bird II or Zarkava are concerned I am damned if I could pick a single fault with either.
I read the post not realising who posted it then I was amazed to find it was you Fist. How on earth can you criticise Dancing Brave? How many horses have been the best at 8f, 10f and 12f? Mill Reef wasn’t neither was the Brigadier. Dancing Brave was a machine.
Brigadier Gerard was top miler ( unbeaten at the distance), top mile and a quarter horse ( 2 Champion stakes and 1 Eclipse ) – and won over mile and half , his only race at the distance ( group 1 KG & QE ).
In my opinion, he’d have beaten DB at the former distances, if not the mile and half.
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Personally I think the most over-rated was Nijinsky (except he won the Triple Crown). I don’t think he would’ve beaten any of the greats mentioned.
Dancing Brave over ten furlongs I think would’ve been nigh on unbeatable regardless of the opposition. Just my opinion for what its worth which probably isn’t much lol.
Over a mile best horse El Gran Senor just look at the 1984 Guineas form it must be one of the strongest formlines ever.
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We could be here all night arguing the point. I don’t have a problem with Dancing Brave he was a great horse in his own right.
He had a great turn of foot and allI am saying is catching the horses he did in the likes of the Eclipse and the Arc is one thing but catching and passing Mill Reef or Sea Bird II would have been a totally differnet ball game.
As far as Nijinsky goes, not for one minute was he overrated. Over raced yes but not over rated. There was a lot more to the career of Nijinsky than meets the eye.
He won the Triple Crown with ease and when he won the King George and QE you could never hope to see an easier winner.
It’s hard to imagine how he and Dancing Brave would compare. Dancing Brave came with long sweeping runs and was in top gear in the likes of the Arc well before the finishing line.
Nijinsky was a completely differnt type of horse. Lester without as much as moving a muscle would cruise up to really good horses and Lester could sit there motionless despite the others going hell for leather. When Lester said go the acceleration was instant.
There’s long story to the defeat of Nijinsky in the Arc but to cut it short it was a case of greed and the horse running against the advice of Vincent O’Brien. Lester’s ride didn’t help either he totally misjudged the pace of race getting beat on the nod by Sassafras. Nijinsky ran once more and again was beaten but he had gone a bridge too far in the Arc and was well and truly over the top.
Had he not run in the Arc and been kept in training as a 4 year old I doubt if you would be saying what you said.
I see Yeats has been entered in the Arc now, may or may not run. I find this very unusual, a 2.5 mile specialist, dropping to 1.5 miles, Magnier reckons ‘stayers do well in the Arc’. I know horses change distances now and then, but isn’t this extreme? Has it happened before and what chance do people give Yeats if he runs?
I can’t get my head round it! Saw it on Channel 4 teletext just now..
Ardross ( L. Piggott ) finished second ( btn head ) to the Aga Kan’s Akiyda in the 1982 Arc, following his Ascot Gold Cup victory a few months earlier.
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There’s a possibility that Yeats’s name is being thrown in for extra publicity for its AGC win. However, O’Brien wouldn’t run it in a month of Sundays if he didn’t show alot of ability at distance in training. He’d never run that horse if he didn’t believe it had a chance at this stage.
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