Islam

[clivexx]

Might also be worth pointing out that nazism was defeated ony by products of western culture and the desire to presrve freedoms and has not reared its ugly head anytime since. Might also be worth pointing out that the largest groupings that remain admirers of nazism originate from the islamic world , including not least the supposedly progessive Iman that Ken livingstone invited over to lecture us in london

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStliOnVl6Q

[Ken(West Derby)]

It is quite obvious from the author of this thread that he/she wouldn’t recognise culture even if it hit him/her in the face.
Islam has undoubtedly been responsible for exporting the most sophisticated and divine cultural influences of any other other nation in the World.
This should not be confused with practices that are alien to Western definitions and interpretations of crime and punishment.

[clivexx]

"alien to western definitions" God that makes me laugh

Alien to basic humanity should be the description.

Unbelievable the hand wringing you get when some (usually the the left) are confronted with this. Laughably they claim they are for rights for women and gays and against bigotry etc (which they clearly are not) but those beliefs become only "western definitions" when discussing other cultures.

Claiming that islams centuries old "export" of culture means that we must respect their current beliefs is akin to asking us to still respect the nazis for their engineering achievements

[Ken(West Derby)]

…..ignorance is bliss.
K

[Miss Woodford]

Islam has undoubtedly been responsible for exporting the most sophisticated and divine cultural influences of any other other nation in the World.

Sorry, Ken, but I can’t think of ONE.

Algebra? The rest of the foundations for modern mathematics?
Some of the most impressive architecture in the world?
Preserving the works of the great Greek and Roman writers/philosophers through the Middle Ages?
Advances in printmaking and shipbuilding?
Great poetry, art, and literature?
The Godolphin Arabian, Darley Arabian, and Byerly Turk?

The whole concept of fundamentalist Islam emerged in the late 19th century by disgruntled political groups in the Ottoman Empire, and the whole era of colonialism only strengthened it. Prior to that, the Islamic world was far more progressive than Europe.

[anthonycutt]

Well its all a matter or perspective,insomniac. A Bangladeshi reading about almost 21,000 cases of gross indecency, incest and rape in the UK might also start to draw conclusions about cultural superiority based on generalisations. They’d be wrong to do so as well.

A Bangladeshi reading about those cases may consider his culture to be superior but then he’ll look around at the shack that his seventy seven pence an hour for making our clothes bought him & he’ll still look to our way of life as an aspiration.

[Ken(West Derby)]

Miss Woodford, thank you, I was beginning to despair.
Anthonycutt, I despair.
K

[Miss Woodford]

Algebra? The rest of the foundations for modern mathematics?

I thought that was the Babylonians.

Algebra comes from the Arabic al-jabr. The Babylonians invented the concept of zero, among other things, but the Golden Age of Islam produced much more.

[Grasshopper]

I remember a day when the Quran was called the Koran in the UK.

Sorry, I digress…

I’m sure you remember the days when Beijing was ‘Peking’, Sri Lanka was ‘Ceylon’, and Wetherspoons was ‘Ye Olde Ale Shoppe’ too, Himself.

But I digress…

[Cav]

A Bangladeshi reading about those cases may consider his culture to be superior but then he’ll look around at the shack that his seventy seven pence an hour for making our clothes bought him & he’ll still look to our way of life as an aspiration.

I used that as an example of how easy and wrong it is to cherry pick examples and construct generalisations from them. I also stated a Bangladeshi considering himself superior to a Brit based on the sex abuse example, would be wrong to do so (wish people would bother to read what’s written) . So I guess that kinda makes my point. And your correct, their are millions in the third world that admire and aspire to our democratic and relatively fair system, not hate us, as some of the forums extremists would have you believe.

Thanks for your informed reply Cav. I’m quite happy to accept that many Bangladeshis (and many Muslims) would be just as appalled by the events in my original post.

I know my three colleagues would be. Two happily married family men, the third a complete womaniser and good fun to be away on trips with. I’d hate to think I’d have missed out on three very decent human beings because I believed I was superior to them based on the actions of some simpleton barbarians whom they happen to share a nationality with.

[clivexx]

Ken west derby despairs instead of attempting to answer the points

Perhapos try this one…

If America flogged rape victims, could we excuse that on the basis that its just our "european definition" of human standards?

[cormack15]

They may not flog rape victims but they’re not averse to starting illegal wars on the whim of a leader who was academically ill-equipped for the role.

You can throw in state sponsored violation of human rights in Guantanamo as well. You don’t need to delve that far back in history either to illustrate a litany of atrocity.

We (the democratic West)might have a better standard of living and a more effective and fairer ‘system’ of justice but we’re not as morally or culturally ‘superior’ as we kid ourselves on to be.

[insomniac]

Whatever the opinions of the posters, I must say that it speaks volumes for TRF that such a topic is so thoroughly discussed on here. (Although some may wish I’d never have started it).
It seems to rankle with some that some of us are prepared to look at the customs/culture/beliefs of some and draw an (in this case) unfavourable comparison to Anglo-Saxon/Western ways . As Clive points out though, just because we in the west have our shortcomings, that doesn’t make all creeds/cultures etc. equivalent.
Cav. R. provides an informative and balanced response that not all Bangla Deshi’s / Muslims condone the actions outlined in my original post.
Grasshopper uses his usual customary wit to tackle the issue – I’m still chuckling at his colourful prose from his earliest reply.
Clivex answers are (IMO) correct and straight to the point.
Ken W. makes the worthwhile point that some followers of Islam have added to humanity’s lot but then rather loses the plot by playing the man not the ball in slagging off my recognition of "culture", or something like that. (Ken- please enlighten me as to why YOU are superior in this respect. Is it because I dare make a comparison? Please explain your noble, lofty reasons for such a statement; I won’t write a rude reply – honest.)
To those who disgaree with my thread title let me ask simply – do you think that all cultures/creeds/ways-of-life are equal?
Do you believe that this is a topic that shouldn’t be discussed and if not, why not?

[wordfromthewise]

Insomniac,your conciliatory ( some might say licky) summary of people’s opinions on this matter is for me at odds with the crass arrogance and subsequent defence of the title of the thread that you started.

‘Do you think that all creeds,cultures etc are equal ‘would indeed have been an interesting topic for a thread but using words like superior and 1 example to try and demonstrate that British culture is ‘better’ than Islam gets nobody anywhere.

I still maintain that you probably don’t mean culture in the truest sense in this thread at all. You and others are posting about political and legal extremes in a particular place rather than what is generally accepted as culture which is anything from food and music to art and literature and everything inbetween.

This is why I maintain that it is impossible to say much more than that cultures are different to each other,none are superior,I presume that all are preferred by the people who practice them but absolutely none are superior and to suggest that ones own culture is superior is the height of arrogance.

I have to add that this view of ‘superiority’ is one born out of our colonial past that I can’t help continuing to associate with this country and before you say ‘hear,hear’ you might stop to consider if we are ‘reaping the benefits’ or some might say paying the price right now of trying to impose our own political model on the rest of the world……..but that is another subject.

[insomniac]

I still maintain that you probably don’t mean culture in the truest sense in this thread at all. You and others are posting about political and legal extremes in a particular place rather than what is generally accepted as culture which is anything from food and music to art and literature and everything inbetween.

Bob, in some of my posts on this thread I have enclosed "culture" in quotes and made in clear that this word isn’t the perfect word, but how long can a title thread be? Should I (could I) have added "creed /belief/way-of-life" in the title ?
Culture can mean "tilling the soil", but it’s clear from this topic that the culture I refer to is with regard to the customs and ways that people(s) live (others may define it better, but you know what I mean. (You seem to get quite hung up over my using the word "culture".)

This is why I maintain that it is impossible to say much more than that cultures are different to each other,none are superior,

Bob, when two things are different (football teams / racehorses / religions / menus / cultures (in the societal sense) / loaves of bread ) comparisons CAN be made. For you to suggest that, in this instance it is wrong is just plain wrong. To say that "none is superior" is to most ridiculous.
Your "licky" comment does you no credit – if you’ve read my posts on here in the past, I have always tried to avoid being rude to those who disagree with me. In fact, I use the Racing Forum lounge because I know they’ll usually be a vigorous exchange. Snide comments like that belittle you.

this view of ‘superiority’ is one born out of our colonial past

Ridiculous.
That assumption is as daft as me saying that your reluctance to judge one "culture" (don’t get hung-up about the word) against another is due to you feeling guilty about Britain’s colonial past.

(Many of the caveats and salvos I’ve made in subsequent posts about some things being wrong in Western society as well/ definition of "culture / Islam not all like these etc. Could have been made in my original post. But I am conscious of my making too many "long" post in the past; yet here I am again! Gadzooks!)

[anthonycutt]

Miss Woodford, thank you, I was beginning to despair.
Anthonycutt, I despair.
K

I’ll tell you what Ken, work for a company that has dealings with Bangladesh, that has employees that have been there as is the case with my employers & then feel free to comment.

Until then, if you’re not going to say anything constructive (and all evidence suggests that you’re not), shut up.

[insomniac]

From The Spectator today (does the author read TRF?
In the interest of brevity, I won’t paste all the article, but, for those who want to read the full piece, here’s the link:-
http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/5734983/part_3/we-should-not-absolve-islam-of-the-crimes-committed-in-its-name.thtml

It’s by Rod Liddle (a writer prepared to make comparisons and hardly a “colonolialist” )

Here’s a couple of snippets:-

…but we have got ourselves into a twist over Islam in the UK. We have absolved the ideology of all blame by enacting legislation which demands that the rest of us ‘respect’ it, and therefore resist ad hominem attacks upon it as if they were in some way racist. They are not, of course.

and

The principle of freedom of speech should allow such views, no matter how vile they might be. But the government should not give credence to them by enacting legislation which says that Islam is tickety-boo and thus demanding of our respect. Nor, I would argue, should state schools accede to the views of local elders, who decree that Muslim girls should be dressed in headscarves, which are perhaps a gentle nod towards the subjugation which ends in some pit in Somalia with a woman pleading for her life and the rocks beginning to fly. In private, let them wear what they want, and it would be an infraction of human rights if, à la Jack Straw, we were to complain about the dress code of Muslim citizens. But we should not permit them in a place which has the imprimatur of the state. We should not say, in quasi official terms, we think this is ok.

By the way, he does go on to echo the point made by Cavelino R. that the action (re. the rapist) is repulsive to most in Bangladesh.

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