- This topic has 36 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
The worst one last year was at York in last years Juddmonte which Dick Turpin was running in, mid-commentary Cornelius Lysaght interrupted John Hunt not to discuss the race but to tell a story about Dick Turpin the Highwayman . . . . . FFS
He wouldn’t have done it when Peter Bromley was the commentator. Times may change but no reason to let standards slip.
Willie Carson does know the sport inside out, that much we do know – but being a top ex flat jockey with a bubbly personality does not a television presenter/commentator make.
I often cringe at his tongue-tied ramblings and Clare Balding’s attempts not to intervene too often and correct him, or indeed patronize him, as she was more prone to do in previous years.
I think the debate goes beyond just Willie Carson. The question is about quality and standards ( especially where the BBC is concerned ) and the tv producers need to look at this issue and ask themselves this:
Would viewers prefer to watch and listen to a presenter or commentator who is articulate and informative or someone untrained (albeit an "expert" in their field) who is not tongue-tied, has a poor grasp of basic grammar, and has trouble constructing a sentence.
The viewer is all important and should be made to feel at ease.
The Beeb have to say, Willie, sorry wee man, your time’s up !
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
- Total Posts 17716
Would viewers prefer to watch and listen to a presenter or commentator who is articulate and informative or someone untrained (albeit an "expert" in their field) who is not tongue-tied, has a poor grasp of basic grammar, and has trouble constructing a sentence.
Unfortunately, research has shown that the majority of TV viewers (i.e. those with only a passing and/or absent-minded interest in what’s on their screens) prefer the untrained, tongue-tied personality with no communication skills.
The irony is that it costs the BBC
more
to employ Willie Carson or John Parrott than it does to employ Ian Bartlett, and they do it because that is what the majority of people prefer. Remember we live in a day and age where nobody is allowed to be better than anyone else – which means that outstanding expertise, articulacy or insight are not qualities which are seen as advantages for broadcasters.
The celebrity who has an enthusiastic, amateur response to a sport (like the people watching) is always going to be promoted ahead of the experts. Actually, Willie’s problem is that he knows too much. Sadly, it’s only his broadcasting amateurism which keeps him in the job. I think he knows this, and plays it up. The real-life Willie is not the grinning monkey we see on screen.
Given Mr Bartlett’s exemplary job of calling the 2011 Prix Du Jockey Club not to mention the 2010 Prix De La Foret "and Goldikova looks beat", I found his arrogant dismissal of one of the best jockeys this country has produced rather annoying.
Given the recent, uncharacteristic, miscalls from Barty it is all the more reason not to be interrupted by pointless prattle whilst attempting to call a 17 runner race.
I am sure if Willie’s retort to him was "just make sure you get the finishing order right this time Bartie" Mr Bartlett would have been the first to throw the toys out of the pram.
I am equally sure he wouldn’t
Isn’t it the case that you need all sorts of broadcasters from Sean Boyce to Willie Carson?
Yes you need experts but you also need fun and the likes of Carson and Matt Chapman do inject entertainment to the sport.
You can have the most brilliant minds in the world covering horse racing but if there is no personality to them it gets incredibly boring fairly quickly, not perhaps the sport but certainly the coverage.
We could bring back Julian Wilson…….
Julian Wilson wouldn’t go within a hundred miles of the BBC so long as Clare Balding is there. He cannot stand the woman.
I remember the pratical joke he played on her in the late 90s, when with the help of some of the crew, he got her to read out an e-mail which was sent in by an " R Soles" – apparently
–Clare, none the wiser, naively read it out while Julian did his best not to laugh. It was his way of bringing her down a peg or two. He left the beeb, partly because of a private falling out with Sir Peter O’Sullevan ( because he went back on a promise to retire at 65 ), and mainly because he hated working with Miss Balding.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I think Willie knows a fair bit about a horse’s appearance, demeanour and constitution but he’s just a very poor broadcaster.
As for Bartlett, I find his condescending tone to be very irritating. That aside, he’s miles better than Jim as a commentator.
I took a dislike to Mr Carson when he leapt to shield Fallon form the questions of Paul Kenyon in a BBC documentary a few years ago. It’s widely accepted now that Fallon is less than squeaky clean if not a proven in cheat.
I’m not a fan of the celeb race-reader chipping in mid-race with his in-running analysis. I know that CH 4 employ it quite routinely (and for me Francome is by far the best at this particular niche of racing broadcasting) but for me it disrupts the commentary flow (and none of them, inc JF, are any better than the commentators at interpreting how things are shaping up). I’d rather let them type away at a keyboard and let me choose whether to display their comments in-running or not.
Is it the (over-)use of this analysis that particularly grates, or the person analysing, or both? Watching archive footage of ITV racing on Youtube recently reaffirmed that Lord Oaksey used to say his piece in the middle of many races as far back as 30 years ago (and maybe even further back than that, for all I know). I wonder how that used to go down with people.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
I took a dislike to Mr Carson when he leapt to shield Fallon form the questions of Paul Kenyon in a BBC documentary a few years ago. It’s widely accepted now that Fallon is less than squeaky clean if not a proven in cheat.
Is it?
I took a dislike to Mr Carson when he leapt to shield Fallon form the questions of Paul Kenyon in a BBC documentary a few years ago. It’s widely accepted now that Fallon is less than squeaky clean if not a proven in cheat.
Is it?
He has critics.
I took a dislike to Mr Carson when he leapt to shield Fallon form the questions of Paul Kenyon in a BBC documentary a few years ago. It’s widely accepted now that Fallon is less than squeaky clean if not a proven in cheat.
Splitting hairs perhaps, but I think you are misremembering the interview with Graham Bradley and Panorama’s Andy Davies. Willie Carson didn’t shield Bradley from the questioning, but was caught telling Bradley that he "said the right thing" after the TV crew were ushered away.
I took a dislike to Mr Carson when he leapt to shield Fallon form the questions of Paul Kenyon in a BBC documentary a few years ago. It’s widely accepted now that Fallon is less than squeaky clean if not a proven in cheat.
Splitting hairs perhaps, but I think you are misremembering the interview with Graham Bradley and Panorama’s Andy Davies. Willie Carson didn’t shield Bradley from the questioning, but was caught telling Bradley that he "said the right thing" after the TV crew were ushered away.
Yes, I recall that incident also. In the Kenyon programme the interviewer approached Fallon at a racecourse and asked him a pointed question about a poor ride on an odds on favourite. Carson appeared from somewhere and tried to drive Kenyon and his crew away. He then turned to Fallon and said ”sorry, I couldn’t do anything about that”
They’re a despicable gang of unprincipled cheats.
- Total Posts 17716
Yes, I recall that incident also. In the Kenyon programme the interviewer approached Fallon at a racecourse and asked him a pointed question about a poor ride on an odds on favourite. Carson appeared from somewhere and tried to drive Kenyon and his crew away. He then turned to Fallon and said ”sorry, I couldn’t do anything about that”
They’re a despicable gang of unprincipled cheats.
I don’t think you should talk about BBC documentary makers that way. They may go too far occasionally (as in that case), and they may be irritating as stupid gadflys, but they’re only doing their job. Without BBC documentary crews our society would be the poorer.
I thought the BBC’s coverage of Ascot this year was a slight improvement – a bit less fashion without that dreadful bitchy man (name escapes me) who has blighted the coverage in recent years.
The best of the coverage came on the "red button" races where the whole thing calmed down and Mick Fitzgerald and Rishi Persad spent most of the time talking about the actual horses. There was also the ever-amusing sight of Aidan O’Brien calling him Ritchie all the time.
When it comes to Willie Carson, he really should be kept to the paddock where he has a fantastic knowledge of breeding and of interpreting a horse’s general demeanour pre-race.
The reason why he’s used more is sadly down to the fact that if you asked your average lay sports fan to name five Flat jockeys, you would probably get the usual "Frankie, er, er, Pat Eddery, Willie Carson, is Lester still riding?" response.
Think we just have to accept that racing isn’t as important as it used to be hence fewer nationally-known names – my granny did a 10p Yankee every day in the 60s and 70s – she would be buying a scratchcard to get her gambling thrill these days.
Anyone who saw the episode of Pointless on BBC2 a few weeks ago where the contestants had to name Derby-winning jockeys would despair. They didn’t say Mick Kinane for example.
Going off topic I know but until there’s a way of winning vast amounts of money for a £1 stake any initiative will struggle to get the general public more interested in racing.
However much RFC has cost, funding a £1m pot each week (would get a lot of it back through stakes) would do a lot more to boost racing’s profile. Get some kind of tote direct slip printed in the tabloids on a Saturday morning and away you go! (the marketing boys can have that idea for nothing – maybe I could have a cut of their massive fee).Yes, I recall that incident also. In the Kenyon programme the interviewer approached Fallon at a racecourse and asked him a pointed question about a poor ride on an odds on favourite. Carson appeared from somewhere and tried to drive Kenyon and his crew away. He then turned to Fallon and said ”sorry, I couldn’t do anything about that”
They’re a despicable gang of unprincipled cheats.
I don’t think you should talk about BBC documentary makers that way. They may go too far occasionally (as in that case), and they may be irritating as stupid gadflys, but they’re only doing their job. Without BBC documentary crews our society would be the poorer.
We need the occasional expose on the box, keep the spotlight on the cheats. It has to be in the punter’s interests.
–
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.