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Think there is a lot of smoke and mirrors and black arts talked about training horses. Personally feel AOB’s comments were just as obscure and vague as MJ’s.
Peter Homas in today’s Post asks the question I have always wanted to ask – why don’t they run a horse over a mile and a half first to find out if it stays! Sounds stupid, but athletes train over the distance they run races, why not horses, and I’ve heard the stuff about having run the race before thay get to the track etc.
I would like to see you get a race like speed 1m4f gallop into Hawk Wing in between the Guineas and the Derby and expect to have a horse for the rest of the season…………
Exactly Aidan – long distance athletes rarely train over their full racing distance, particularly at full racing pace – and not close to the big race date.
Additionally (poss not a prob for AOB!), they need to simulate race conditions to make the trial worthwhile – as horses can often find more in the adrenalin of a competitive finish that they would in a standard gallop.  And to find out that your horse stays 12f against his stable companions might not mean he can stay better than his real race opponents.
Overall, the risk would probably not be worth the gain.
:wave: <br>
At the end of the day, trainers are doing a job for themselves and the owners, and if You feel they have no respect for the betting public, why should they? They don’t work to make the betting public rich, so if Johnston was unhelpful, I don’t think he has anything to be ashamed of. And O’Brien told us nothing we didn’t know before anyway.
What did you expect Johnston to say?<br>"Fight Your Corner won’t get a sniff of O’Briens two & Bandari will fall out of the stalls and run like a dog"<br>Surely anything else would have been misleading the public.
Exactly Tommy Tipster and quite rightly so.
The sooner the betting public come to terms with that, the more comfortable they will be with racing.
Ihaventalight, when you start paying the bills, you can have a say. It would be interesting to see your , aboveboard, direct, hide nothing for the punter approach.
I understand racing needs us but I can’t agree with Your view that O’Brien was so much more helpful than Johnston in the lead up to the derby. O’Brien told us the ground was the key, anyone with half a racing brain could have said that, whilst there obvoiusly wasn’t too much between the Johnston horses. Anyway, how much could the trainers really tell us, the horses are going well at home, but they can only compare their homework to stablemates. Anyway, don’t sulk if You’re a mug punter, I got both the oaks and derby winner, form was enough for me, as hawk wing as proved, work at home does not always translate to tthe track.
I think you’re being a bit harsh on Johntone here. <br>Firstly, neither horse had run at Epsom before so he really couldn’t have predicted whether either of them would have handled Tatenham Corner.
If you read the Racing Post Weekender last Wednesday incidentally, you would have known that whilst Johntone favoured Bandari, Kevin Darley thought Fight Your Corner was the best of the two. This would surely suggest therefore that the trainer really didn’t know which was the best horse…he said this publically !
Finally, a trainer is usually reticent about a horse’s chances so as to not affect the starting price…as both the Coolmore horses and Dettori’s horse were heavily backed, does it really make that much difference that Johhnsone didn’t go public on his first choice anyway ?
Finally Finally, As both Godolphin and Coolmore’s perceived second choices (on the basis of jockey bookings) beat the supposed stable fancy; can we really count on any trainer to tell the truth ?
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As Peter Thomas said in the post yesterday they would replicate the Himalayas at Coolmore if they have too, they already have a gallops with the Derby bends.
Phunter – on running the trip it does seem so logical and simple, but it is obviously not
Aidan, Sal <br>I wasn’t suggesting they run the trip flat out or near to race day
To suggest that Johnston has "total contempt for the betting public" is ridiculous. He is one of if not the most open of trainers insofar as his public pronouncements are concerned. It was crystal clear all week that there were differing opinions inside the yard as to which one had the best chance.
It is adding insult to injury to compare him unfavourably with O’Brien who is clearly a decent chap but who does nothing to assist the betting public with his constant pronouncements that so and so is "a nice horse" with "bags of speed" and "a lot of class" and who will be entered along with twenty-odd others from the stable at the five-day stage for a particular race and "we’ll take it from there".
Either we are all mug punters replying here Ihaventalight or You are talking out of Your ar*e when saying Mark Johnston is a disgrace when not telling the public how his horses will run. Although racing needs the public, You are living in a fantasy world if You think trainers are going to tell us everything about a horses chance in a race. And to use Aiden O’Brien as an example of how it should be done is a joke. The man is a fantastic trainer but saying the ground is the key and the horses have a great chance is not helpful, its just stating the obvious. I suppose the way of seeing who ballydoyle fancied more for the race was jockey bookings, and even then that wouldn’t have been any use for punters as hawk wing lost. So sorry son, but I think You’re wrong here.
(Edited by Tommy Tipster at 9:06 pm on June 11, 2002)<br>
(Edited by Tommy Tipster at 9:07 pm on June 11, 2002)
Calm down IHAL!
:point: :cool:
I do see your point thought – it’s very valid, I think MJ could have least made a point about the differences between Bandari and FYC as he knows them best but on the other hand I myself think it was very hard to split the two.
MJs Saturday column was interesting to a purist etc like myself learning a bit more behind the scenes but I agree, probably not very helpful to punters in search of clues for winners. I’m not a punter though:biggrin:
I do generally think trainers avoid questions and avoid answering obvious and simple questions i.e asking one if they think their best G1 horse is their best one etc and they say "well he’s a top class animal" or something like that. I do like to see opinions and strong opinions at that – trainers should take a look at TRF for that!:cool:
<br>IHAL – Aidan O’Brien said that Hawk Wing was the kind of horse you could run in a July Cup. He also said Galileo could drop back to a mile because he has the speed to do it.
Johnston actually said Bandari was his best Derby horse but that Kevin Darley wanted to ride Fight Your Corner.
Johnston actually told everyone weeks ago exactly how he thought his horses would do (i.e. they had no chance) when he was so reluctant to encourage their then owners to splash out 90 grand on their supplementary entries. He knew that both would struggle to make the first 3 and therefore recoup their entry fees.<br>I don’t really see what difference it would have made if he’d been able, or willing, to split the two of them when neither of them were ever going to win.<br>To suggest AOB is a open book when talking about his horses chances is a joke. Anybody remember Istabraq? Or what about his frankly silly comments that Hawk Wing could win either the St. Leger or the July Cup?
First of all I’m not going to downgrade myself to insults Ihal but sorry if I fail to reach the heights of sulking managed by You over Johnston’s comments, backed one of his horses in the Derby by any chance? Maybe being more of a racing fan than a gambling fan as such I don’t see Your reasons for demanding why all trainers don’t meet Aidan O’Briens level of punter helpfulness :laugh: . If You have a bet on a football match one week, will You demand the manager’s of both teams give You a full report of how the players have been training in the lead up to the match?
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