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Does a seasoned jumper have, or know of a spread sheet listing the number of hurdles and fences for every course and distance in the UK and Ireland. This would certainly help a fellow handicapper relatively new to national hunt racing, in addition to being much appreciated.
Does Proform contain this data?
Cheers
There are rules governing such matters.I cannot say what they are but any clerk of the course(national hunt) should have a copy.
There are guidelines as to the minimum number of flights / fences but the number can be a movable feast, even at the same course – especially with hurdles which can be moved to save ground.
A classic example is the hurdle on the side of the course at Towcester which, depending on ground conditions, can be before or after the 3m start which will result in either 11 or 12 flights being jumped.
I also remember on my last visit to an NH meeting at Newcastle the number of flights in most of the hurdles was different as a result of some extreme re-positioning of flights.
Number of flights/fences in the race is given after the going in the Racing Post full race results. Might need a bit of work but it should be possible to find out most of the data you need. Alternatively select rhe course etails in the Racing Post which gives a map for each course chases and hurdles with starts marked. From this it is straightforward to work out fences/hurdles for each distance.
Rob
P.S. In three mile hurdle races at Musselburgh there are 13 hurdles in the race, not the 14 that so many race commentators want to tell us! Sorry, pet gripe out of the way!
P.S. In three mile hurdle races at Musselburgh there are 13 hurdles in the race, not the 14 that so many race commentators want to tell us! Sorry, pet gripe out of the way!
You can blame the RP course map for that
Frankly I wouldn’t trust the RP course maps at all – I used to use them when doing my racecards but so many were wrong I made my own set.
For example on the Leicester chase map it still shows the open ditch as a cross fence with three in the home straight. There is now no cross fence and the ditch is now the second of four in the home straight.
Oh yes – they moved about three years ago and the map still has not been changed.
I defy anyone to interpret the RP course maps for Uttoxeter.
http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_popup.sd?crs_id=84&action_date=2013-09-11&selected_tab=COURSE_MAP#selected_tab=COURSE_MAP
It must be written down somewhere, I’ll keep thinking, even if it means counting them! Might come in use full if a data base could be built between a few of us and an average time between obstacles was collected .
Do they move the fences on the day often?For Uttoxeter I make it 12 or 21, according to the Racing post Map.
Do they move the fences on the day often?
For Uttoxeter I make it 12 or 21, according to the Racing post Map.
Hurdles are more of a movable feast than chase jumps (unless you’re at a course with mobile fences in which case both are movable)
It must be written down somewhere, I’ll keep thinking, even if it means counting them! Might come in use full if a data base could be built between a few of us and an average time between obstacles was collected .
Do they move the fences on the day often?For Uttoxeter I make it 12 or 21, according to the Racing post Map.
Uttoxeter often omit fences to be rebuilt so that can affect the number of fences jumped.
There’s a lot of variation with 3 mile chases, at Sandown they jump 22 fences, 18 fences at Kempton and 17 at Exeter.
Ayr regularly miss out the first fence in the straight, sometimes the first two, early in the season.
Perth’s racecard course map has had the fence before the straight missing for as long as I can remember!
Kelso re-arranged the course before last season, but I managed to secure a copy of their official track layout diagram which is very helpful. It gives a couple of race distances which I don’t think have been used yet.
I must admit Paul is probably right about the RP map having Musselburgh’s 3 mile start in the wrong place. On a linked subject, I can’t think of any other track that has 12 hurdles in a 2m 4f race.
Rob
On a linked subject, I can’t think of any other track that has 12 hurdles in a 2m 4f race.Rob
I’m sure Plumpton used to but they certainly don’t now.
Hello,
The only strict instructions (from the BHAGI’s) regarding the numbers/positions of fences/hurdles are as below:
Fences:
1. In a Steeplechase course there are to be at least twelve fences in the first two miles
and each succeeding mile at least six fences. Each fence must be at least 30 feet in width.
In exceptional circumstances, and with the agreement of the Inspector of Courses, the
width of a fence may be reduced to less than 30 feet. Furthermore, any reduction in width
from an existing dimension can only be implemented with the prior agreement of the
Inspector of Courses.
2. There is to be at least one open ditch for each mile. In addition, one of the above
fences may be a water jump. However, under no circumstances must the first fence to be
jumped in a Steeple Chase be either a water jump or an open ditch. If it is intended to
change the course by adding or omitting a water jump permanently or temporarily, the
Managing Executive is to secure the approval of the Inspector of Courses beforehand in
case the change necessitates the re-siting of other fences.Hurdles:
Number of flights
1. There are to be at least eight flights of hurdles in the first two miles of the course
and an additional flight for every additional quarter of a mile.The instruction goes into much more depth regarding dimensions, padding, etc etc but above is the most relevant parts to this discussion.
Most interesting, thank you so very much. In summary there are not regulations stating that the number is set, just as long as it complies with health and safety. However I wonder if it is possible to obtain a course inspectors report?
Hi Firecat,
You are correct in that the number is not set, so long as it meets the requirements of the BHAGI’s (with some exceptions – below). (The General Instructions govern everything that goes on on course, from Medical & Veterinary Provision to the types of machinery that can be used on the racing surface.)
However, the number of fences/hurdles themselves, can be altered on any given raceday in exceptional circumstances either by agreement with the Inspector of Courses in advance (for example when work has been carried out on the racing surface in that area and it has not yet recovered sufficiently) or during a meeting by the Stewards (if a fence were to be damaged or a portion of ground around the obstacle deemed unsafe for any reason).
Also, some courses have special dispensation to not comply with the BHAGI’s in terms of the number of fences/hurdles and they have to renew the dispensation annually when they apply for their racecourse licence. I’m afraid I don’t have a list of these courses though.
Inspector of Course’s reports aren’t widely available outside the Racing Admin website or the Racing Calendars. For example, when Safety Factors are altered, Stabling Numbers are changed etc, these are published as British Horseracing Authority Notices but whether these are available publicly I’m not sure.
You may find this link helpful http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resou … d_reports/
I defy anyone to interpret the RP course maps for Uttoxeter.
http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_popup.sd?crs_id=84&action_date=2013-09-11&selected_tab=COURSE_MAP#selected_tab=COURSE_MAP
I don’t think the two spurs in the middle of the course are used anymore, and only fleetingly were.
Not sure whether they were intended to be seasonal in, say, the same way as the long starting chute from the middle of the course at Exeter was, back in the days when it still entertained the notion of a Summer Course (chute) and Winter Course (no chute).
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
There are guidelines as to the minimum number of flights / fences but the number can be a movable feast,
Can’t think of anywhere in Britain that compels so little jumping of its chase runners as Market Rasen – 14 jumps at both 2m4f and 2m6f110yds since the water was removed.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Hello,
The only strict instructions (from the BHAGI’s) regarding the numbers/positions of fences/hurdles are as below:
Fences:
1. In a Steeplechase course there are to be at least twelve fences in the first two miles
and each succeeding mile at least six fences. Each fence must be at least 30 feet in width.
In exceptional circumstances, and with the agreement of the Inspector of Courses, the
width of a fence may be reduced to less than 30 feet. Furthermore, any reduction in width
from an existing dimension can only be implemented with the prior agreement of the
Inspector of Courses.
2. There is to be at least one open ditch for each mile.So by my maths Market Rasen’s 3m1f course should have at least 18, rather than the 17 which has been the norm since the water was removed?
Would the fact that this distance of race there includes four open ditches, one more than the minimum, perhaps be used as mitigation against that shortfall, as the course would still count as constituting enough of a jumping test by means other than the bare total of fences?
Alternatively, would Rasen come under the list of special dispensation courses you mentioned previously?
Not a loaded question, this, I can assure you – simply genuine interest/curiosity.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Do they move the fences on the day often?
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