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Just a couple of questions to throw out there:-
How influential, or how much onus do you put on the sire of your broodmares when purchasing them ?
I do not belong to the TBA, is it worth joining in your opinion?
@Rusty Rails – re the possibilities of spreadsheets and data: I’ve had a look at the archived catalogues that are available online. Tatts goes back to 2009. From a quick scan, it’s not as mind-blowing a job of work as it might seem, since you only have to scan the top lines under the 3-generation pedigree. So I’d be prepared to give it a go – if folk are interested; let me know. As well as the dedicated NH sales, I’m assuming you’d want October’s Horses in Training in there as well?
On broodmare sire – I’ve not bred horses, but practical experience with breeding other animals and lots of interest/reading over the years in relation to TBs and other sport horses suggests that this is more important than the simple % influence stats over the generations gives you to believe. I found it was really important, particularly in relation to temperament/character. But I’d also be saying, know the bottom line inside out (racing and breeding/progeny history) – i.e. 1st, 2nd and 3rd dam. ‘Skipping’ is common.
TBA? Others will know the benefits, but it seems to me – as an outside observer – that this is the organisation that is pressing most strongly on issues of soundness, durability, book-size, the importance of stamina etc. and which has the interests of the smaller breeder (and the TB) at heart.
@Steeplechasing – a great hare to set running! Whilst rummaging around, I came across this:
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/declaring-wind-ops-could-reflect-poorly-on-sires/1885684/As Rusty & Louise have said, lots of vested interests here. It may be a grey area, but we live in an age of open data – and I for one think small breeders need to have as much information available to them as possible to inform decisions over which sires to use.
A very interesting link, Titus, thanks. It certainly doesn’t stop the hare running. The main premise of objectors against the publication of wind ops in horses is that there are so many different treatments it could not reasonable be kept track of. That sounds something of a lame excuse: there cannot be that many.
I found another article (http://www.theracingapp.co.uk/blog/wind-ops-need-know/) claiming that winds infirmities are classed on a 1 – 5 scale. I think that would be good enough for most punters/breeders.
The impression given in that article is that these ops are quite invasive and I wonder too if there could be wariness of a welfare issue here. Might welfare groups question the pursuit of surgical intervention in a horse who is struggling to take in enough oxygen when racing? Some might argue that it is the animal’s interest to have its breathing improved, but others might counter that rather than surgical intervention a horse should simply not be asked to go at racing speed.
Another protest in that article is based on wind infirmities being a ‘matter of opinion’. That’s fine; all breeders/punters need is to know if the decision was finally taken to operate on the horse.
In a sport where billions has been turned over in the sale of and the betting on horses, it seems crazy that what is, or could be inside information is withheld. I know some ops work better than others and some don’t work at all, but it should be up to the consumer, in whatever form, to have access to the info and judge for him/herself.
HI Titus, if your willing to give it a go that would be great in my opinion, I wish i had the ability and stamina to take on such a task, it takes me half an hour to type a reply on the forum. I think HIT (horses in training) sales will give you a good idea, Tattersalls, Goffs and Brightwells before Tatts took Brightwells over……Good Luck
Titus, I would be most interested in the data. Another worthwhile study would be withdrawn horses at the store sales. Obviously there are many reasons for withdrawal, but failing the vet would be a big one, and wind problems a big contributor to failures. As an aside, I asked our vet if laser treatment was going to become an issue with checking the wind, and he said for sure. Traditionally the vet checks for the operation site, but with laser there is none.
Colin Tizzard talks about Theatre Guide interesting what he says about Kings Theatre as a Sire, just as we thought
Good discussion here, and link to Kevin Blake article:
http://community.betfair.com/horse_racing/go/thread/view/94102/25476749/stallion-soundness-and-wind-operations-etc?liveView=0not NH, but HKJC highlights the veterinary records of declared starters ahead of each meeting, which includes this general explanation for punters of, among other things, respiratory disorders:
http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/ove_intro.asp
also a Roarers Database.
Louise & Rusty – just to say, I am ‘on the case’ but paid work needs to take over for the next few days …
I am adding into the spreadsheet the withdrawals at the major NH store sales (currently ploughing through Goffs Land Rover; am assuming you will want in Tatts as well … ?)
Already the data is providing more than food for thought …
Will p/m you when it’s ready.Wit, that is a fantastic resource. I’ll have a gawk and see if there are any bloodlines that we are familiar with. We have so much to learn from countries like this, and the Germans.
Titus, I echo what Rusty says – appreciate what you are doing here, and can’t wait to see what shows.Titus, I realised that I never answered your question – if you could do Tatts also, that would be great. Derby and August are the two really – only smatterings at other sales. I had a look at the roarers in Hong Kong (great band), and all 29 on the list have Northern Dancer in their blood. 21 have Danzig, with 17 of those Danehill. It will have to be qualified by looking at the sound horses, and the preponderance of Danehill in Australia probably skews the data (most seem Aus/NZ origin). I will look at more pedigrees in due course.
Hi Louise – yes, having ‘done’ Goffs am now ploughing through Tatts Derby & August. I’ve done the smatterings in February as well (easy by comparison to the numbers in Derby & August!). The number of withdrawals is erh a tad on the large side … but boy oh boy is this interesting …
Louise/Rusty –
In case you don’t check your messages … I have pm’d you … data now done!Titus
Just to say ‘thanks’ to Steeplechasing/Joe for butting in on this thread – thanks to this, and spending more hours than I care to think about immersed in sales data and spreadsheets, I’ve learnt more about NH breeding in the last week than in the last 30!
Previously, I had flat racing in the box that was mostly about breeding (and sales), and NH as mostly about racing, with NH stallions & mares as a zone largely separate from the pedigrees of their flat counterparts. This way of thinking goes back to my roots in the sport, which is the days when NH was about horses like Captain Christy, Pendil, Bula, Lanzarote & my namesake TO, and at around the time when Northern Dancer started to take the flat by storm. So, I kept the pedigree interests to flat horses and thought NH was largely immune from the problems that have increasingly beset the flat. How wrong can one be?
In England and Ireland, not only is there the obvious over-reliance on the posse of SWs’ sons, but there is also the same reliance as on the flat on the Mill Reef line on the dam’s side to ‘dilute’ the repeat lines of ND. In some NH pedigrees the lines of ND is now at 3 or even 4. The all-too-familiar SW/Danzig/Danehill combo also figures in an increasing number of pedigrees of horses racing over obstacles. Not only that, but Raise a Native (via Mr Prospector & Exclusive Native) is also appearing, and on more than one occasion. As we were looking at Altior and Charbel on Saturday, what we were seeing was High Chaparral x Danzig, with two lines of Mill Reef, and Ifraaj (from the Mr P line) out of a SW mare. No wonder these two have so much more ‘toe’ compared to a jumps-bred horse. I’m wracking my brains but I can’t remember a horse over fences (not hurdles) change gear so electrically and ‘kick’ instantly clear like Altior did last weekend. And to do that to Charbel as well – well that to me looked completely different to the battle of the gallopers that is most NH racing. If this is what is coming through in the pedigrees, then jump racing will become even more like the flat.
Whilst talking pedigrees, Louise sent me this fabulous link –
In there, in the archives, is an impassioned piece inspired by Eight Belles (and on Raise a Native)
http://www.reines-de-course.com/eight-belles.html
Soundness is even more at a premium in the jumps horse. In the way that associational thoughts occur, after reading Ellen Parker, my mind wandered to Simonsig, & I went and looked at his pedigree …
http://www.pedigreequery.com/simonsig
I hope to goodness we don’t have to witness much more by way of days like that at Cheltenham – but, if these kinds of pedigrees become more popular in NH racing, I fear we will.
Meanwhile, back in the zone of wind, this – from the TBA – gives an indication of how much this is becoming a major issue:
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