New Approach – Jim Bolger

[aaronizneez]

Firefox

Conversely, are you suggesting Dermot Weld is a Paul Nicholls to John Oxx’s Toby Balding?

No not at all, I was merely implying that success in three big races doesn’t automatically mean you have others who haven’t won them in your shadow[/color:30vz69r4].

Oxx deserves credit for having successfully plundered Europe’s three most prestigious mile and a half contests. ANd I guess what I was trying to imply was that if Oxx trained New Approach, Lush Lashes, Chinese White or Casual Conquest, the decision to go to Epsom would never have been in any doubt whatsoever.

You are right in saying Oxx deserves credit however he did do it with horses owned by the Aga Khan who is known for sending some of his best horses to tackle the big English races. Up until Sinndar Oxx hadn’t had a Derby runner in twenty two years of training and I don’t recall him having many since so saying there would have been no doubt is debatable[/color:30vz69r4].

I dare say Weld, probably more than Bolger even, may have hoped to have keep his charges at home until the Arc at least and plundered domestic Group 1s –

With regard to plundering domestic Group 1’s I think both trainers are more than capable of that. Weld it seems is capable of sending horses half way round the world to win although he has won two English classics to Oxx’s one, but take away the Aga Khan’s horses and with the exception of Ridgewood Pearl Oxx has had little success abroad.

Both trainers are very capable but to say one is in the shadow of the other because of basically one horse is inaccurate IMVHO[/color:30vz69r4]

[Salselon]

Dear God.

Does anyone (I’m on a restricted internet connection) have a link or could possibly paste Dermot Weld’s Classic Winners for the benefit of Firefox?

Regards,
Andrew

[davidbrady]

I hope this is correct

Dermot Weld
Irish 1000 Guineas: Princes Polly 1982, Trusted Partner 1988, Nightime 2006
Irish St Leger: Vintage Crop 1993 & 1994, Vinnie Roe 2001 – 2004
Irish Derby: Zagreb 1996, Grey Swallow 2004
English 2000 Guineas: Refuse To Bend 2003
Irish Oaks: Blue Wind 1981, Dance Design 1996
Irish 2000 Guineas: Flash Of Steel 1986
Epsom Oaks: Blue Wind 1981

John Oxx
Epsom Derby – Sinndar (2000)
Irish Derby – Sinndar (2000), Alamshar (2003)
Irish 1000 Guineas – Ridgewood Pearl (1995)
Irish St Leger – Eurobird (1987), Petite Ile (1989), Kastoria (2006)
Irish Oaks – Ebadiyla (1997), Winona (1998)

[Salselon]

David – thank you very much.

Firefox – I hope that ends the notion your comment had any credence. This is also forgetting the fact Weld has won 2 Melbourne Cups, an astonishing achievement for an Irish Trainer.

[Aragorn]

No but it doesn’t matter as Firefox will only use the same argument about the quality of group 1.

What does it matter anyway. They’re both very good trainers capable of winning big races.

[Cav]

Have we moved to set point, match point even?

[Librettist]

I hope this is correct

Dermot Weld
Irish 1000 Guineas: Princes Polly 1982, Trusted Partner 1988, Nightime 2006
Irish St Leger: Vintage Crop 1993 & 1994, Vinnie Roe 2001 – 2004
Irish Derby: Zagreb 1996, Grey Swallow 2004
English 2000 Guineas: Refuse To Bend 2003
Irish Oaks: Blue Wind 1981, Dance Design 1996
Irish 2000 Guineas: Flash Of Steel 1986
Epsom Oaks: Blue Wind 1981

John Oxx
Epsom Derby – Sinndar (2000)
Irish Derby – Sinndar (2000), Alamshar (2003)
Irish 1000 Guineas – Ridgewood Pearl (1995)
Irish St Leger – Eurobird (1987), Petite Ile (1989), Kastoria (2006)
Irish Oaks – Ebadiyla (1997), Winona (1998)

You can’t count the Irish St Leger as a Classic, surely!?

[davidbrady]

With regards to the horse again, I see that the BHA have warned Bolger not to delay the start of the big race on Saturday. I seem to recall Kris Kin being walked to the start for his Derby while the other runners trotted around in circles, some of them sweating up (although the race only went off 1 minute late according to RP). Does anyone else think that this has a little something to do with the disquiet over the entry "fiasco"

[Cav]

I cant see how they can make the horse parade and not hold up the start. Any bad feeling towards Bolger he has brought entirely upon himself.

[clivex]

As New Approach goes down to the start the BHA should have a team of stewards banging dustbin lids

[Salselon]

David – thank you very much.

Firefox – I hope that ends the notion your comment had any credence. This is also forgetting the fact Weld has won 2 Melbourne Cups, an astonishing achievement for an Irish Trainer.

Dont patronise me please.

Also, I never asserted Oxx had more classic winners than Weld, so don’t imply this was the case.

If you would take the time to read my points you will see that my argument is that numeric advantage alone does not make a trainer better than another.

Also, as Libbretist has also taken the time to point out, take out the Irish Leger (and even the Irish Guineas which is often a VERY weak race) and you are left with a negligible numeric advantage.

I tend to agree with the poster who said what is the point of all this – both are very good trainers. I happen to feel one has passed the test of greatness by getting a very good horse and training him to perfection to take all the important 12 Group 1 races in a season.

Weld’s feat of winning Melbourne Cups has done much to enhance his reputation, but how many European trainers target that race and with what sort of ammunition?

What is the point of all this? You said Weld lives in the shadow of Oxx, and refuse to admit this is incorrect.

I happen to prefer Oxx myself, especially how he handled the likes of Sinndar, Alamshar and Azamour.

[Salselon]

As New Approach goes down to the start the BHA should have a team of stewards banging dustbin lids

Seriously though, the Derby is a test of many things, and a sound temperament is one. Surely he should have to parade and be ready to load at the same time as others? What’s stopping cantering him and his lead horse as opposed to walking them down?

[davidbrady]

What are the implications if the horse breaks off the parade early anyway – disqualification?

[johnjdonoghue]

Yeah, agree to disagree, getting bored of it myself. Although have to say Lydia Hislop has gone down in my estimation, her article stinks of jingoism.

JohnJ

[Salselon]

Agreed

[Aragorn]

I agree with your last statement – They are pretty similar and matters not a jot… Just back a horse and cheer the bugger on come saturday!!!

Personally I like Clive’s suggestion!! If they give Bolger any kind of special dispensation they want their heads examining.. Personally I think Bolger’s being a drama queen as New Approach is no worse than hundreds of other horses running out there.. He isn’t going to win anyway…

[Nickc]

Lydia Hislop’s remarks were not jingoistic. If a British trainer — before the Arc, say, or the Melbourne Cup — had behaved as Jim Bolger has done, he or she would have offered a poor reflection of British racing.

[Author]

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