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Seriously? They’re just slot machines.
You’re absolutely right. That’s what makes it all the more horrifying. The fact that these slot machines have destroyed so many lives.
Google ‘fruit machines ruined my life’ and then ‘FOBTs/roulette machines ruined my life’ and take a look at the vast difference is results.
Professorwotsist,
You say gambling on FOBTs is stupid and then ridicule them whilst championing turf and sex…things you admit to being addicted to.
What is stupid and pointless is a matter of subjectivity.
Only in the pub and internet discussions. In the real world, among what courts of law call ‘right thinking members of the public’ stupid and pointless is pretty obvious.
In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough. For others, like the tearful mug in the link, they are destructive. I say tough tit. It’s the difference between liberty and license. For societies to remain free they must have citizens who can exercise freedom of choice and control themselves.
It all sounds really warm hearted to ban this and ban that. But one ban leads to another.
English history shows us that there is a force of destructive reformist zeal in these islands. One sees it in the reformation, the two hundred years of iconoclasm which followed it; one sees it in the destructive mantras which have torn through British culture for years, in architecture, education, law, health and social cohesion.
In the end you have the tail of legislation and the nanny state wagging the dog of the taxpaying law abiding public. I don’tcare
if FOBTs are banned or not. All I am saying is that the idiots who wreck their finances on them will go and do it on something else. Because they’re idiots.
Thou art too full of the milk of human kindness.
Prof is the milkman of human kindness,
he will leave an extra pint.Hold his hand for him and he’ll wake up!
In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough.That’s just plain daft Prof.
Point is about gambling addiction (whether on FOBTs or horses) isat time of bet
there is no thought of "can I afford losses".
If you become addicted to gambling on horses Prof, I hope people are more sympathetic than you are to these unfortunates.
I’m not for banning FOBTs, but may be someone should look in to how they can be made less addictive.
If you are falling,
I’ll put out my hands.
If you are bitter,
I will understand.Value Is EverythingProf,
Not so easy to be dogmatic about what "right-thinking people" means…
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s … lic+define]%23&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
You say: "In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?"
Err, helloooo….do you really need to be told that betting on horses can be addictive? You seem so smart.
I do not agree banning FOBTs would lead to banning other forms of gambling. OK, it may set a precedent for banning a similarly destructive creation – such a bad thing?
I think this whole "freedom of the citizen" argument is missing the point.
FOBTs are a growing cancer that rivens England’s social fabric.
Should we legalise all drugs and prostitution, Prof? I just want to be sure where you stand on the liberalisation matter.
You believe the addicts would always find something else to be addicted to. I don’t.
If someone is introduced to cocaine, tries it a few times and then becomes addicted, would they have found something else if not introduced to that cocaine?
If you do, fair enough.
Personally, I don’t regard addicts, whatever their addiction may be, as idiots.
Zip
Ps, MissW – these terminals are meant to be random, unlike most slot machines (I’m not sure there really are any random slot machines?) and the stakes of the roulette makes slots small beer – £100 max for a 5 second spin on the wibbly wobbly wheel of death.
No, i don’t need to be told that gambling on horses is addictive. Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote. I contend that some addictions are less stupid and destructive than others – providing you have control over yourself and do not allow greed and stupidity rule your life. These are sins/vices that come into all areas of life. If you can’t be trusted to walk past a FOBT without pumping your whole life’s savings into them then you can’t be trusted to do anything. The jerk crying his eyes out because he’s lost loads of money in a FOBT is really crying because he’s realised he’s an idiot without a shred of self-control and that is a very frightening and sad thing. That however much you big-hearted addicted-to-cant (yes cant, gingertipster, look it up in a dictionary) guys want it not to be so is
his
problem. If it hadn’t been FOBT it would have been something else.
You say I’m cold hearted, primarily because it makes you feel and look good. But I’m extremely empathetic. I have suffered through my addictions at times but the suffering has led to wisdom. William Blake: The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.I am anti-drugs myself having spent many years in milieus where the full gamut of street drugs were abused. They do no-one any good in the long term and are particularly destructive and dangerous to children. They have no cultural or historical precedent in this country – beyond laudanum – and therefore have no framework of custom or manners surrounding them. They are just a menace.
I have no opinion on whether prostitution should be legalised. Those reformers like getzippy who think the problems of human behaviour can be solved by a few strokes of the legislator’s pen in Whitehall should look at Europe where prostitution was legalised in an attempt to end ‘street girls’ and the danger they were in. It didn’t work. For a number of reasons, mainly because you need to pass various health and safety checks, unlicensed street trade still flourishes. The reformist zeal has solved nothing.As for the milk of human kindness comment: As I say, I am empathatic and sympathetic to the plight of the destructively addicted (as opposed to the happily addicted. Look at gingertipster. He thinks he’s mr sense and control when it comes to gambling, but I would suggest he’s happily addicted to a minor vice that is mainly giving him pleasure. This analysis will be deemed wrong because there’s old one man in the world who can be right and that’s ol’ ginge. Broth of a boy!) but I know that the only way these people can lift themselves from their misery is by taking control of themselves and stop believing the addiction industry’s specious whining. They have become addicted to a con. They must look at that fact very closely.
Would you group a working man who says he is addicted, though in a non-destructive way, to good wine, poker, or buying expensive watches, would you group this man with someone addicted to sniffing glue or standing in Ladbrokes for five hours with a load of somali benefit cheats playing FOBTs? No, course you wouldn’t.
But after 14 years of Blair ‘we can cure everyone of everything by State control’ it seems people have gone a bit soft in the head.
Is teaching basic probability theory too much to ask?
I doubt most of the teachers in this country can even spell probability.
How many lessons would it take to teach the law of large numbers? an eternity?
Probably.
What about games of ruin? how difficult is it to teach in a class room?
I’m not joking when I say that Ofsted or some other off-the-wall independent group of dickwads could probably say that by teaching them about gambling, they’re simultaneously encouraging them.
Teachers are so fixated on teaching what’s in the syllabus that they don’t teach the children about real life. What the hell do children know about tax or NI contributions or the NHS or politics or mortgages or loans or whatever else when they finish GCSEs or A-Levels and leave the education system? That’s what more than 60% of them do now, so how do they know how everything works?
Is it beyond the scope of teachers in this country?
Based on the ever-decreasing standards of education in this country, and the dumbing-down of exam papers, I’d say there’s a 95% chance of the answer being in the affirmative.
It’s not beyond their scope, but most of the teachers I know are already working at least 60 hours a week and frequently more (including during school holidays) just to keep up with the ever-shifting demands of the DoE. Even then, many would see this as a very worthwhile addition to the curriculum.
The real problem is attitudes elsewhere. Just look at what happened in early December when GamCare proposed teaching the basics of betting in schools.
This:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed … arity.htmlwas followed shortly afterwards by this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic … hools.html
and no Tory education minister is ever likely to come out fighting against "Mad" Melanie.
Prof,
You wrote: "In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough."That is what I was referring to, also pointed out by Ginger.
Obviously, your interpretation of addiction is very different to mine. However, I can be as black and white as you – they’re either addicted or they aren’t.
How an addiction can be less stupid and destructive if controlled is a paradox – you cannot control addiction. However, you may be better placed to give differing opinion on this.
You also wrote: "If you can’t be trusted to walk past a FOBT without pumping your whole life’s savings into them then you can’t be trusted to do anything."
Well, that’s pretty damning. Do you have children? If you do and one of them did have an addiction to FOBTs would you ostracise them from your life…as they cannot be trusted to do anything?
And…"I am anti-drugs myself having spent many years in milieus where the full gamut of street drugs were abused. They do no-one any good in the long term and are particularly destructive and dangerous to children. They have no cultural or historical precedent in this country – beyond laudanum – and therefore have no framework of custom or manners surrounding them. They are just a menace."
Peronally, I’d extend those sentiments to FOBTs.
I honestly don’t think anyone here is trying to "look good" by displaying their personal take on empathy.
So, Ginger – are you addicted to a minor vice that is mainly giving you pleasure? If you are, and have this addiction under control please let us know how and we can help the misguided masses! (hope that wasn’t too impertinent to ask BTW)
As for Blair, OK, you’re not a fan…but the guy had
such
charisma!
Zip
No, i don’t need to be told that gambling on horses is addictive. Read what I wrote not what you think I
wrote
. I contend that some addictions are
less
stupid and destructive than others – providing you have control over yourself and do not allow greed and stupidity rule your life.
Prof,
You"wrote"
earlier
"In my opinion not all addictions are destructive".
Which I disagreed with.
You now say some addictions are "less stupid and destructive", so you’ve woken up.
To add the proviso to that sentence
"… providing you have control over yourself and do not allow greed and stupidity rule your life"
– does not make sense. The whole point of addiction is you’re
not in
control
over yourself
and are prone to
stupidity
. As addiction to gambling is (as the definition says) an "abnormal psychological dependency".
Value Is EverythingThese are sins/vices that come into all areas of life. If you can’t be trusted to walk past a FOBT without pumping your whole life’s savings into them then you
can’t be trusted to do anything.
The
jerk
crying his eyes out because he’s lost loads of money in a FOBT is really crying because he’s realised he’s an idiot without a shred of self-control and that is a very frightening and sad thing. That however much you big-hearted addicted-to-cant (yes cant, gingertipster, look it up in a dictionary) guys want it not to be so is
his
problem. If it hadn’t been FOBT it would have been something else.
You say I’m cold hearted, primarily because it makesyou feel and look good
. But
I’m extremely empathetic
. I have suffered through my addictions at times but the suffering has led to
wisdom
. William Blake: The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
As for the milk of human kindness comment: As I say,
I am empathatic and sympathetic to the plight of the destructively addicted
(as opposed to the happily addicted. Look at gingertipster. He thinks he’s mr sense and control when it comes to gambling, but I would suggest he’s happily addicted to a minor vice that is mainly giving him pleasure. This analysis will be deemed wrong because there’s old one man in the world who can be right and that’s ol’ ginge. Broth of a boy!)
but I know that the only way these people can lift themselves from their misery is by taking control of themselves
and stop believing the addiction industry’s specious whining. They have become addicted to a con. They must look at that fact very closely.
Would you group a working man who says he is addicted, though in a non-destructive way, to good wine, poker, or buying expensive watches, would you group this man with someone addicted to sniffing glue or standing in Ladbrokes for five hours with a load of
somali benefit cheats
playing FOBTs? No, course you wouldn’t.
I would not say calling people "jerk" and "idiot" show any sign of being "empathetic and sympathetic to the destructively addicted" Prof. Am sure calling these people such names won’t help them snap out of their desperation. Just describing yourself "extremely empathetic and smpathetic" doesn’t wash with me Prof, it’s got to be shown in your words. Hopefully will see some evidence of it in future.
Of course the only way they can "lift themselves out of their misery is by taking control", we agree on that. As I said earlier, they should be encouraged and helped
if
they recognise their problems and want to "take control". What is wrong with that? I say "IF" because if they don’t want any help, then there’s no point in helping.
What the xxxx do "somali benifit cheats" have to do with FOBT addicted users?
Again, it doesn’t seem like "empathy or sympathy to me.I would not describe your words as "wisdom" Prof.
Hate to disappoint you, but I’m not "addicted" to anything. Certainly not gambling. I have a love of racing, which is an entirely different thing. However, I do recognise a "there but for the grace of -the man who doesn’t exist- go I" feeling. Any gambler (imo)
could
end up in that place so they deserve our empathy, sympathy and respect.
There’s a chap I take to the races now and again who I believe has a gambling problem. Massively increasing stakes as the day goes on if winnerless, drinks heavily (despite health problems) etc. And he can’t afford to do any of it. Just wish I knew what to say to discourage his gambling.
Value Is EverythingThe implication in my post earlier was, for all its middle-class angst and concern for the ‘vulnerable’ really intended as a swipe at those who really believe (and can sleep at night) that these weak-willed feckless individuals should be fleeced. I repeat again, these machines – glorified fruit machines cleverly placed in an acceptable and expected betting environment are actually the antithesis of true bookmaking – yours to mine – and they should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves
Old fashioned words, hey-ho
‘one born every day’
‘a sucker born every minute’Small men with something to prove take pleasure in an easy bullying
Prof,
You wrote: "In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough."That is what I was referring to, also pointed out by Ginger.
Obviously, your interpretation of addiction is very different to mine. However, I can be as black and white as you – they’re either addicted or they aren’t.
How an addiction can be less stupid and destructive if controlled is a paradox – you cannot control addiction. However, you may be better placed to give differing opinion on this.
You also wrote: "If you can’t be trusted to walk past a FOBT without pumping your whole life’s savings into them then you can’t be trusted to do anything."
Well, that’s pretty damning. Do you have children? If you do and one of them did have an addiction to FOBTs would you ostracise them from your life…as they cannot be trusted to do anything?
Zip
OK, this boils down to one thing: your definition of addiction is the same as the addiction industry’s model: a raging destructive thing. My definition is that it *can* be, but it can also be something controlled.
A wise old doctor once said to me: ‘Everyone is addicted to something’. Acoss the land, all sorts of addictions, from heroin to chocolate hobnobs, are indulged. Some cases result in minor personal problems, some don’t. What are you gonna do, ban EVERYTHING that YOU think is bad? What a totalitarian outlook.
What generally happens with addictions is that they are modified as the addict grows older. One would not realise this from hysterical press reports (and I am a journalist on a national newspaper so I know whereof I speak), but most people achieve a modicum of wisdom as they age.
Which leds me to my overall view of addiction as opposed to yours: addictions are in the end the problem of the addicted. The ramifications of their addiction on their families may be problematic as well but in the matter of actually sorting it out then no-one but the addicted can sort that out. You want anything that may be dangerous to those who can’t control themselves removed. I see this as a long slow road to virtual enslavement by the State. You need to learn the difference between license and liberty ie everything is permitted unless expressly not permitted, as opposed to, nothing is permitted unless expressly permitted. Your attitude will take us towards the latter. You might as well go and live in North Korea.Besides, if your priorities of banning things is destructiveness then why not call for cigarettes to be banned? They actually kill a lot of people every day.
Re my ‘can’t be trusted’ comment: Yes, I do have children and I would point out to them that if you are compelled to put every bit of money you possess into a slot machine if one happens to come into your line of vision, then you cannot be trusted to do anything until you have tackled this problem. No sensible or sane person could think or say anything else.
I hope this makes my position clear.
Prof is the milkman of human kindness,
he will leave an extra pint.Hold his hand for him and he’ll wake up!
In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough.That’s just plain daft Prof.
Point is about gambling addiction (whether on FOBTs or horses) isat time of bet
there is no thought of "can I afford losses".
If you become addicted to gambling on horses Prof, I hope people are more sympathetic than you are to these unfortunates.
I’m not for banning FOBTs, but may be someone should look in to how they can be made less addictive.
If you are falling,
I’ll put out my hands.
If you are bitter,
I will understand.See my reply to getzippy.
These are sins/vices that come into all areas of life. If you can’t be trusted to walk past a FOBT without pumping your whole life’s savings into them then you
can’t be trusted to do anything.
The
jerk
crying his eyes out because he’s lost loads of money in a FOBT is really crying because he’s realised he’s an idiot without a shred of self-control and that is a very frightening and sad thing. That however much you big-hearted addicted-to-cant (yes cant, gingertipster, look it up in a dictionary) guys want it not to be so is
his
problem. If it hadn’t been FOBT it would have been something else.
You say I’m cold hearted, primarily because it makesyou feel and look good
. But
I’m extremely empathetic
. I have suffered through my addictions at times but the suffering has led to
wisdom
. William Blake: The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
As for the milk of human kindness comment: As I say,
I am empathatic and sympathetic to the plight of the destructively addicted
(as opposed to the happily addicted. Look at gingertipster. He thinks he’s mr sense and control when it comes to gambling, but I would suggest he’s happily addicted to a minor vice that is mainly giving him pleasure. This analysis will be deemed wrong because there’s old one man in the world who can be right and that’s ol’ ginge. Broth of a boy!)
but I know that the only way these people can lift themselves from their misery is by taking control of themselves
and stop believing the addiction industry’s specious whining. They have become addicted to a con. They must look at that fact very closely.
Would you group a working man who says he is addicted, though in a non-destructive way, to good wine, poker, or buying expensive watches, would you group this man with someone addicted to sniffing glue or standing in Ladbrokes for five hours with a load of
somali benefit cheats
playing FOBTs? No, course you wouldn’t.
I would not say calling people "jerk" and "idiot" show any sign of being "empathetic and sympathetic to the destructively addicted" Prof. Am sure calling these people such names won’t help them snap out of their desperation. Just describing yourself "extremely empathetic and smpathetic" doesn’t wash with me Prof, it’s got to be shown in your words. Hopefully will see some evidence of it in future.
Of course the only way they can "lift themselves out of their misery is by taking control", we agree on that. As I said earlier, they should be encouraged and helped
if
they recognise their problems and want to "take control". What is wrong with that? I say "IF" because if they don’t want any help, then there’s no point in helping.
What the xxxx do "somali benifit cheats" have to do with FOBT addicted users?
Again, it doesn’t seem like "empathy or sympathy to me.I would not describe your words as "wisdom" Prof.
.
‘Course you wouldn’t, ginger, because you’re addicted to playing the homespun omniscient elder!
I have explained my view of addiction in my reply to get getzippy. Basically, everyone’s addicted to something and addiction is not by any means the road to hell it is claimed to be by the addictions industry. You two take a very doctrinaire view of it.
I understand your point about gambling on horse. I myself have a love of the Turf and never punt on anything bar the odd game of roulette. This in itself is instructive: Roulette is a game of chance where every runner (bar the sides) is marked up at the same price. Racing has a far greater degree of probability, a sport with a gambling section shall we say.
To become addicted to roulette is a rather silly thing to do; to become preoccupied with finding winners is a rather logical thing to do.
When you watch gambling addicts bet on horses in betting shops, this is the set-up. Man with about 40 betting slips, which he keeps riffling through and examining, paces around in the minutes before a race goes off. He doesn’t trouble the form much, he just watches the prices. Why, one asks, is he doing all this NOW? About three seconds before the off he scribbles down £100 on the second favourite because a jockey who once did him a favour is on it.
Horse sometimes wins, more often loses and said man throws his slip at the screen and swears and curses as the 14/1 winner you backed at 10am wins going away.
I’ve had periods of addicted, mug-punter behaviour like that, long ago. What got me out of it was the realisation that a) I could win consistently because I didn’t really undertand what the hell was going on and b) I refused to work at it to find out. I used to look at the form in the racing post and think: can’t be arsed.
When my attitude changed I stopped losing lots of money, won a lot more but above all started toenjoy
the game in a way I had never done before. This was a process of learning and maturation.
The FOBTs are something that fools must graduate from in my opinion. On balance I am against banning them because I feel that the only way civilisation can continue is if people are allowed to make choices and not have choices made for them.Ginger wrote:
What the xxxx do "somali benifit cheats" have to do with FOBT addicted users? Again, it doesn’t seem like "empathy or sympathy to me.
You may not live in London, ginge, so you may not realise that in the past 10 years the Labour Party thought it a splendid idea to encourage about seven million migrants into the country, many in London (while simultaneously pushing the country to the brink of bankruptcy). A certain of migrant gets straight in the benefit system and spends an inordinate amount of time thumping FOBTs in betting shops. I see this every day. It is beyond dispute, even by you pink and fluffies who think I am terrible for pointing out that slot machine addicts are sad fools.
these machines – glorified fruit machines cleverly placed in an acceptable and expected betting environment are actually the antithesis of true bookmaking – yours to mine – and they should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves
No ****, sherlock.
But they just join a long list of untter shamelessness in our society. As I said to zippy, if you rank things in order of the danger thy pose, why not ban cigarettes right now? They kill people every day.
Prof,
I am not in favour of banning these things either. It is possible to show sympathy and empathy without being in favour of abolition.
So you’re a journalist. Who for, the BNP?
My "Milkman of human kindness" quip are lyrics (or at least based on) a song of the same name. One of the first songs written by well known leftie Billy Bragg.
Value Is EverythingOK, this boils down to one thing: your definition of addiction is the same as the addiction industry’s model: a raging destructive thing. My definition is that it *can* be, but it can also be something controlled.
A wise old doctor once said to me: ‘Everyone is addicted to something’. Acoss the land, all sorts of addictions, from heroin to chocolate hobnobs, are indulged. Some cases result in minor personal problems, some don’t.
But you weren’t on about non destructive addictions like chocolate hobnobs were you Prof?
You asked Quote: "What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses"?
And stated "FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough".Value Is Everythingthese machines – glorified fruit machines cleverly placed in an acceptable and expected betting environment are actually the antithesis of true bookmaking – yours to mine – and they should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves
No [expletive], sherlock.
But they just join a long list of untter shamelessness in our society. As I said to zippy, if you rank things in order of the danger thy pose, why not ban cigarettes right now? They kill people every day.
You’re hell bent on annoying everyone Prof.
I think Drone’s point is that an FOBTs is not a machine for "betting" in the same way as horse racing or sports betting. In that "bookmaking" is thought of as betting on something that a knowledgeable punter has a chance of making a profit.No matter how knowledgeable a punter is about FOBTs, he can’t change his chance of making a profit.
Value Is Everything
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