Ludovic Kennedy

[graysonscolumn]

Mr Kennedy’s passing at the age of 89 has been announced;

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx? … =150323846

Doubtless opinion will vary wildly on the pages, but with his being both a Liberal and a leading figure in the push towards the ban on capital punishment, I’m as sad at his passing as I was happy he’d had a long and fulfilling life.

Gosh, they’ve been dropping like flies this autumn…

gc

Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

[Drone]

RIP

[wit]

didn’t know him personally, but he did a good and necessary independent job on police incompetence and judicial complacency, and highlighting that innocents did get executed. RIP.

however certainly not an occasion for yet more smug self-congratulation by "liberals".

abolition might be the right step, but seems to have happened in the wrong order.

nothing effective to follow it up; complete mess created and inexorable rise in murder convictions.

(Between 1900 and 1965 murder convictions ran at an average of 29 per year. There were 57 in 1965 – the first year of abolition. Ten years later the total for the year was 107 which rose to 173 by 1985 and 214 in 1995. 71 murders committed by people released after serving "life sentences" in the period between 1965 and 1998. Much after 1998 it gets very difficult to get the equivalent numbers out of government).

this guy has more of an overview:

=======================

Punishment will remain popular with the general public (and therefore politicians) as long as there are no viable alternatives and as long as crime continues its present inexorable rise. Logically, however, punishment (of any sort) cannot be the future – we must progress and therefore we will.

Until this utopian point is reached, which I believe it ultimately will be, I think that we will see the use of the death penalty continuing and its reintroduction in countries that had previously abolished it. Most of the Caribbean countries are trying to get it re-introduced.

It is clear that in strict penal societies such as Singapore, that the crime rate is much lower than in effectively non-penal societies such as Britain. It is, therefore, logical to assume that Singaporean style policies are likely to be adopted by more countries as their crime rates reach unacceptable proportions.

I do not believe that the majority of people who support capital punishment or other severe punishments, do so for sadistic reasons but rather out of a feeling of desperation that they and their families are being overwhelmed by the rising tide of crime which they perceive the government is doing too little to protect them from.

I think there would, in the long term, be sufficient support for non-penal methods of dealing with criminals if these were proved to be effective.

A particular danger in our society is that we continue to do little or nothing effective about persistent juvenile offenders.

If the death penalty were re introduced, we may be consigning many of these to their death at the age of 18, having never previously given them any discipline whatsoever.

Surely execution should not be both the first and last taste of discipline a person gets and yet as we allow so many youngsters to run wild and commit ever more serious crimes unpunished, public opinion and thus political expediency makes it more and more likely. Nicholas Ingram, who went to the electric chair in the American state of Georgia in 1995, is a perfect example of this phenomenon.

We should start by introducing stricter discipline from "the bottom up," i.e. start with unruly children at school and on the streets and progress through young thugs and older thugs before we think about restoring capital punishment.

This way, we might bring up a generation or two of disciplined people who might not need the threat of execution to deter them from committing the most serious crimes.

It is noticeable that whilst Singapore retains and uses the death penalty, it also has severe punishments for all other offences, including caning for many offences committed by young men who are usually the most crime prone group.

Thus, Singapore provides discipline at all levels in its society and has the sort of crime figures that most countries can only dream of.

========================================

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/thoughts.html

UK would seem also to need to address the inclinations of some of its immigrant influx from certain parts of the globe.

[graysonscolumn]

as it seems some of the crimes committed in this country, and I’m speaking here of the more draconian, perverse and unnecessary crimes, are actually making people feel like an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (literally) is what’s needed.

Hard not to see the irony in an increasingly secular society clamouring ever more greatly for for a punishment writ large in the OT (Leviticus 24:19–21, Exodus 21:22–25, and Deuteronomy 19:21 FYI), I feel…

(Per a later post, Marble, I’m duty-bound to point out I’m fiercely pro-speed cameras as well, even though one of the buggers claimed me 18 months ago, so we’ve not quite all reached consensus on that one yet!)

Wit, be assured my mentioning of Mr Kennedy’s passing in the first place was not borne of any smug, Liberal self-congratulation – I’m entirely capable of that sort of aggrandisement unaided . It simply seemed a good opportunity to bring to the fore the old kill-’em versus not-kill-’em debate for the first time on here for a while, with the memory of one of the progenitors of the latter stance fresh in the mind once again.

The article you reproduced had me nodding in agreement and shouting at the monitor in about equal measure. Yer man has it about right that the imposition of the death penalty on 18 year-olds after no recognisable punishment hitherto may not be the right way of going about things (why does Mr Cheeky’s line about "you’ll get with crucifixion for a first offence" in

Life of Brian

race to mind?)… but the notion that stricter discipline has to be applied to the likes of unruly schoolchildren is too reactive, too late as far as I’m concerned.

If the view is taken that no child is born evil, then it still behoves us to engage, educate and enfranchise from the very earliest opportunity at all social / income levels – free nursery and kindergarten places for all; more exhaustive deployment of home / care visitors, social workers and the like; universal rolling out of

Surestart

-type initiatives, or the Baby & Tots Days I used to run for North Yorkshire Libraries (which would encompass help on infant hygiene, diet, fitness and safety as well as the inevitable storytimes); and so on.

It strikes me that if you get kids going the right way from the get-go, the rest will follow in more cases than not. It’s short-term investment for massive, massive long-term social gain, but one that the UK, in stark comparison at least to the Germany in which I taught 5 to 19-year-olds (all streams, all backgrounds, and with no recourse to corporal punishment available), has continuously fallen too short of committing to.

And for as long as it does, a few applications of the birch to bare arses (which I think is what the writer may be pressing for the return of, reading between the lines) are doomed to be as meaningless and incongruous a punishment to the recipient as the present-day alternative of the letter home or temporary exclusion.

gc

Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

[wit]

marble

drugs is a huge different issue.

seems to me that drug use and abuse is seldom good news regardless of how legal or illegal the drug may be, from triple-a licensed to triple-a prohibited.

don’t ask why heroin is illegal and methadone is licensed, or why alcohol and tobacco are legal and taxed, while cannabis is not.

the underlying policy is a mess, and the law just reflects that mess.

drugs are about big money for the providers, legal and illegal. on both sides of that fence the pressures are for substituting one drug for another and not about ceasing use.

the drug users/abusers mainly seem bored, looking for escape. why they have that mindset is another big issue.

ask who benefits from a docile / controlled populace and the answer tends to go back to money and power.

i don’t see any drug – legal or illegal – as inevitable or “a way of life”, any more than trash tv or other “drugs” of the population at large.

but then who wants a thinking and active citizenry – very troublesome thing.

i would suggest – give up the drugs, open the eyes, and then either (a) join the money/power folk or (b) turn them over.

don’t expect the distractions to make any sense – confusion is their purpose.

graysons,

“If the view is taken that no child is born evil” –

yes, but i would also take the view that no child is born innocent.

they are born feral and manipulative and are genetically programmed to do whatever it takes to survive.

fully agree that where they go once out of womb is hugely influenced by those they see, and learn from, around them.

which is a disaster for them personally as well as for society if the parents are feckless – and of course parents can be feckless whatever their economic or social circumstances, or societal outlook..

affection and attention and guidance are important for kids. but even with huge amounts of that, you will still see casual cruelty / aggression coming from kids as they test out the boundaries of imposing their will / self-interest.

corporal punishment at any age isn’t so much about the physical pain – its about taking away the affection and comfort and marking what’s wrong in unmistakable manner.

….and the view through history and around the world seems to be that it works an awful lot better than the “modern” alternatives.

don’t buy the argument that it teaches kids to use violence, any more than detention, imprisonment, fines, etc.

there is a world of difference between legitimate authorities — judges, parents, teachers — punishing wrongdoing, and children or private citizens going around beating each other up, locking each other up, and fining each other.

kids need to know unequivocally that authorities can do those things. it does them no favours to suddenly spring it on them at 18, any more than would suddenly springing on them a death penalty at 18.

i suggest it is part of the reason why kids are more respectful and the streets feel a lot safer in “less progressive, more penal” countries than they do in the “more progressive, less penal” ones like the UK.

(another reason is that folk are just held to higher standards of conduct in the former than the latter).

for me sondheim captured perfectly the “progressive” approach and its messy consequences:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq28qCklEHc

best regards

wit

[Drone]

I was at school when the Slipper Ruler and Cane were the norm. These punishments hurt for a short period of time and as long as you did not let your mates know it hurt you were able to move up the pecking order.

Not that ‘non-corporal punishment’ seems to have been anymore successful mind.

Which reminds me of a cartoon in Private Eye in which a lad opens a present on Christmas Day to reveal an ASBO. Lad with moonbeam smile proudly holds it aloft trophy-style.

[Craig Braddick]

RIP, Mr. Kennedy.

A thought provoking and intelligent man. He will be missed.

Not sure how Jeremy can be a strong supporter of Speed Cameras!!! Not in favor at all of Big Brother looking over my shoulder, thank-you very much.

Craig.

[aaronizneez]

graysons,

“If the view is taken that no child is born evil” –

yes, but i would also take the view that no child is born innocent.

they are born feral and manipulative and are genetically programmed to do whatever it takes to survive.

fully agree that where they go once out of womb is hugely influenced by those they see, and learn from, around them.

which is a disaster for them personally as well as for society if the parents are feckless – and of course parents can be feckless whatever their economic or social circumstances, or societal outlook..

affection and attention and guidance are important for kids. but even with huge amounts of that, you will still see casual cruelty / aggression coming from kids as they test out the boundaries of imposing their will / self-interest.

corporal punishment at any age isn’t so much about the physical pain – its about taking away the affection and comfort and marking what’s wrong in unmistakable manner.

….and the view through history and around the world seems to be that it works an awful lot better than the “modern” alternatives.

don’t buy the argument that it teaches kids to use violence, any more than detention, imprisonment, fines, etc.

there is a world of difference between legitimate authorities — judges, parents, teachers — punishing wrongdoing, and children or private citizens going around beating each other up, locking each other up, and fining each other.

kids need to know unequivocally that authorities can do those things. it does them no favours to suddenly spring it on them at 18, any more than would suddenly springing on them a death penalty at 18.

i suggest it is part of the reason why kids are more respectful and the streets feel a lot safer in “less progressive, more penal” countries than they do in the “more progressive, less penal” ones like the UK.

(another reason is that folk are just held to higher standards of conduct in the former than the latter).

best regards

wit

I would pretty much go along with the above. I think I read somewhere that the most important time for teaching values to your children are in the first five years of their life. They may at some point go off the rails later in life but their core values they were taught at that age remain with them. Parents have the responsibility to do this and yet if both work they are relying on others to guide their children, almost abdicating their responsibilty. I know how difficult having a positive influence on your child can be having a 4 year old boy myself but we get round this to a degree by my wife not working on Mondays and Tuesdays in exchange for working on a Saturday with me looking after him on the Saturday. We are fortunate that on the other days after pre school he is looked after by his grandparents although this in itself can cause some issues because we know how grandparents can spoil a grandchild, especially their first one. It’s not a perfect solution but at least he is being mentored by the family who on the whole have the same decent (for want of a better word) values. Certainly from a personal point of view my involvement with my son straight from the beginning has led to an understanding on his part what will and what wont be tolerated when he’s being looked after by me. It doesn’t mean he does what he’s told all the time but he knows there will be consequences if he goes too far. It’s amazing how pleasant he is after a spell cleaning the chimney (just kidding)

[moehat]

Sounds to me as though you and your wife are doing a fantastic job with your little boy; on the subject of grandparents and discipline, how do you deal with a 2 year old who, periodically comes up to you, throws his arms around your neck, gives you a kiss and says ‘sowwy gwanny’? Was interested to hear that the government wants to have hostels for young single mothers instead of giving them council accommodation. Seems like a good idea to me; will stop young girls thinking that if they have a baby the state will then give them everything they need [so may put them off the idea; hostel not quite as glamorous as own flat], will hopefully have help and guidance from experienced people etc. Down side is that the child will start life in an institutionalised sort of way. Maybe these countries that have less crime than we do also have a more stable family/extended family life?

[clivexx]

I liked him a lot. The sort of decent campaigning journalist you see a lot less of now. Great communicator with a lovely relaxed style.

[graysonscolumn]

The best/worst punishment for kids is to deprive them of something they love doing. These days probably their PC’s or games machines.

Spot on. Incredible how pencilled-in trips to the races or promises of lifts would be forgotten about, the fuses would go missing from the plugs to my computer or hi-fi, etc. etc. if I’d transgressed. Subtle (relatively speaking), effective, and above all non-violent getting across of the point by mum and dad – it worked on me and our kid every time.

gc

Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

[graysonscolumn]

Not sure how Jeremy can be a strong supporter of Speed Cameras!!! Not in favor at all of Big Brother looking over my shoulder, thank-you very much.

I’d possibly put it down to needing six goes at passing my driving test 16 years ago – that imbued a strong sense of not wanting to risk losing something notably hard-earned. I suppose it defeats me a bit that other drivers don’t automatically regard their license as equally sacrosanct, and for as long as they don’t, I’m happy to let the cameras proliferate as visual or actual corrective measures.

Plus Clarkson hates them, of course, so a contrary position to that disgrace to all Jeremys everywhere just has to be adopted.

gc

Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.

[Gingertipster]

Ludovig Kennedy has done a lot of good over the years. Apart from what has already been said; his stance on youthanasia. If a dog were kept alive in the same state, the owner would be prosecuted. Already gone through what happened to my grandmother with alzhiemers on other pages here. Just to say, yes, I could easily have given her the injection myself.

As for corporal punishment:

It may well be Singapore has few murders and far less crime. But at what cost? Public are frightened of the Authorities and are severely punished for as little as spitting in the street. It may be more to do with culture anyway, rather than their laws. What about another country with a similar culture to us, USA? They have the death penalty, yet how many homicides? Where would you feel safest USA or GB?
If a man has killed someone and holds a group of ten others hostage. How likely are those 10 people to get out alive if:
a) The murderer knows he will be killed anyway if giving himself up?
b) The murderer knows he will get a long prison sentence?

Also, a murderer might think a victim deserves to die for his / her “crime”. Who are we to say the murderer is wrong, if we ourselves want him to die for his crime?
It will encourage martyrdom in some cases too.
What will happen to those wrongly convicted? Will they get pardons? What compensation will relatives receive? Will cases of hard justice be covered up by authorities? Instead of the verdict being overturned.
Will more murderers get let off? When a jury member signs a death sentence, they need to be 100% certain of guilt.

However, I do believe today’s prison sentences are too short; for other crimes as well as murder. Criminals should not be given as many “chances” before being detained at Her Maj’s pleasure. I know “prison does not work”, those leaving have a very high re-offending rate. Other activities may give these criminals a better chance to “go straight”. Yet what about a deterrent? Yes, it may not be the best solution for the offenders already in prison; but if it serves as a deterrent for those thinking about crime, so be it.

Children:
Children learn violence from their elders. And just because “it did me no harm” does not mean it didn’t do others harm. I used to believe a smack should be the last resort, no longer.. The C4 programme “Supernanny” changed my mind. There is always an alternative to violence. Such viewing should be compulsory for prospective parents. The younger a child is taught the right way, the easier it is.

Corporal punishment should be left between consenting adults and the dominatrix.

I am no expert on drugs, dare say a lot of MP’s aren’t either. Of course advisers are only advisers, but to sack Nutt for telling the truth is nuts (sorry). If cannabis is not as (or only as) dangerous as cigarettes and alcohol; then it should be downgraded. This Government has done well with smoking legislation, yet that contrasts spectacularly with alcohol; it’s pathetic. Youth in this country seem to believe whatever they do when drunk is excusable; it’s not. When effects of cannabis are over-rated, it effectively lessens the rating of alcohol. People (or rather people that abuse alcohol) don’t realise what harm they are doing to themselves.

Value Is Everything

[moehat]

I think what he was trying to say was that the sentence for possessing a drug was dependant on the classification of that drug, and it was wrong to sentence someone for, say 5 years for using or having that drug when someone who robbed or attacked someone may get less

. As for cannabis, I know so many people now that have been damaged by it that my view has changed…no one knows if they are one of those people that will be affected by using it, and theres no going back if they are. It’s not the stuff that used to just make us giggle a lot years ago.

[Author]

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