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Lee was in very good form at Aintree last Sunday, as it goes – explaining in clear, concise terms throughout to the Sunday Funday crowd (many of whom will not have been regular racegoers by any means) what each race was, what the conditions of each meant (i.e. what’s a juvenile hurdle, why a race didn’t actually have any jumps in it, etc.), and so on. Just what a novice / newbie crowd would have wanted, I think.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Fascinating thread this has become…
I think Darren Owen told me Michael Seth-Smith’s wife was a Lady In Waiting to the Queen Mother! For a couple of years he did part of the National on TV (late 60’s) and I think was part of the Radio Two commentary team until 1985. The few commentaries I have heard from him otherwise never impressed me. Very upper class and gave the impression he was talking about goings on far beneath his level!
Upthread, someone mentioned Ken Butler and I found his pic in the Racing Post. Doesnt really look much older from when I (just)remember him!
I think the best commentators in the 1970’s and 1980’s were the ones employed by ITV/Channel 4. John Penney, Raleigh Gilbert and Graham Goode were a cut above the others of the time. I often go looking on youtube for old races just to hear their voices and remind myself of how one day I wanted to be like them!
All three of these came to prominence during the time there was the changeover from black and white to colour television and having seen some of the positions they had to call from, I think the only limit to their abilities were those put in place by the circumstances they worked in. All three though could call a race through binoculars (and there are many callers now who just call off the monitor – shameful, imho) and if they were in their primes, I think all three would still be top commentators today.
Robin Gray was I think the best racecourse commentator of his time and should never have been let go by RTS when he turned 60. Blessed with a youthful voice and an engaging style, he caed deeply about the craft of race calling and spent a lot of time encouraging me. He still had a lot to offer.
Craig.
I seem to remember reading that Michael Seth-Smith began doing racecourse commentaries after entertaining his friends in private boxes at Ascot by doing his own private commentaries for them to keep them informed about what was in the lead.
I never liked Robin Gray. He never mentioned jockeys and only ever gave the horses’ names in a commentary, unlike Raleigh Gilbert, who regularly mentioned jockeys and gave other bits of information as part of his detailed preparation. He was streets ahead of all the others 20 years ago. It was tragic when he was found dead in his London flat back in 1998 after missing two commentary dates at Wolverhampton. People, including his employers, were wondering why he had not turned up.
Darren Owen, mentioned in Craig Braddick’s post, stepped into the breach and did the racecourse commentaries at those February all-weather Wolverhampton meetings. Raleigh was due to have celebrated his birthday that month.
I heard what I believe was Raleigh’s last racecourse commentary day at Worcester in a betting shop the previous December (some of his later scheduled days were abandoned) and heard his last Channel 4 contribution, reading the racing results and doing the betting shows, at Warwick in January 1996.
Ironically, his TV colleague, John Penney, for years never mentioned jockeys in racecourse commentaries but, with the dawn of SIS, upped his game and did at least usually say who the jockey on the winning horse was as it came up to the line.
He also started actually saying who the jockey was on board the runners as they came out on to the course, which for years he had never done. He is still going not so strongly at the age of 85.
Graham Goode used to infuriate me with his course commentaries. They were totally different from his TV commentaries. For course commentaries, he sounded bored stiff, rarely added any extra bits in and showed his contempt for the bread-and-butter everyday races by having long pauses in between his laboured sentences as if it was all too much trouble for him.
I once watched a fairly long two-horse race at Beverley in which GG never mentioned anything else but the name of each horse, accompanied by long, bored-sounding pauses. No mention of who the jockey or trainer was or anything. Just the inevitable: "No change …it’s still …."
Contrast that with Jonathan Turner, mentioned earlier, and in a two-horse race I watched on a visit to Sedgefield, he mentioned the names of the two jockeys, Ridley Lamb and Reg Crank, in almost every mention of the horse, as well as adding in a few bits of information about the wins of the horses etc.
Graham Goode did pull his socks up a bit for course commentaries in recent years and started adding in more extra bits in many races. It got to the point where, by the time he gave his last commentary at Uttoxeter on December 31 last year, I quite liked him again.
The most improved racecourse commentator when betting shop televised racing arrived was Jeremy Branfoot, who really rose to the challenge and started adding in all sorts of information for the racegoers when the runners went down to the start.
I once saw him at Beverley. He plonked his wife down in a seat in the Members enclosure for the afternoon and disappeared up to the commentary box. With his trilby hat and thick glasses, he was quite a sight. I know Jeremy Grayson knows a lot about Mr B.J. Branfoot’s commentaries for point-to-points long after he retired from the rota for meetings under rules.
All of which has got nothing to do with Lee McKenzie or, indeed, the whip.Crusty Patch:
Agree entirely about your words regarding Raleigh.
I first met Raleigh when I was 12 and spent the afternoon with him in the C4 commentary box at Newmarket and John Penney was doing the down the course commentary.
Raleigh was always my favorite so it was a great thrill and I still have a couple of the color charts he gave me. He was a stickler for details and nearly tweny-five years on, I do my prep work in a very similar way and like to add snippets and info during the call. He was a very heavy smoker and was always the first guy in the press room. If I (as a teen practicing) sneaked in to get warm and do my work, he didnt mind but scowled a bit! However, he got very nervous before calling. After racing he was warm, humorous and convivial. He taught me a lot, though I did not realize it at the time. But the legacy of doing prep work was the greatest as well as using the intonation of the voice to denote a change in a race.
John Penney by the way is the only caller I can think of whose calls did not suffer with age. I think he called until he was 70 and his calls never went down hill. Can’t think of anyone else that applies too.
Regarding different styles from racecourse commentary to tv commentary you have to remember the discipline was different because there were different demands. It was not until SIS really came on the scene that RTS wanted their race callers to do any more than call the order. Indeed, some tracks preferred the callers to stop before the line and mentoning superfluous details was simply not done and not encouraged.
Another thing to remember is at least until the 1990’s some commentary boxes lacked monitors and optics in a well made $300 binocular in 2011 surpass the top of the line Zeiss made in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
Craig
When Lee McKenzie was the course commentator at Market Rasen more than 20 years ago, he showed a commendable willingness to be enterprising and used the top of the lid of his fully-opened attache case as a makeshift ledge to rest his binoculars on as he did the commentary, rather than holding them in his hands. I have never seen anyone else do that.
Now he seems to do a lot of his commentaries from the monitor, often saying things like "on the left of picture" or "on the right of frame", which is a bit of an insult to the crowd at the racecourse, who should be his first priority as the course commentator. The crowd watching with their own binoculars won’t be able to see a TV picture, except in the unlikely event of there being a big screen on course.
I know the pictures and commentaries are taken by TV, At The Races and Racing UK, but it doesn’t sit right with me.
Jim McGrath seems to do all his BBC TV commentaries from the monitor, hence it often throws him completely when a runner falls and, because of a bad camera shot or a bad angle, he can’t see who it is and hastily has to look up from the monitor and desperately try to look out at the course to see who it is who has fallen. Very lazy.
You can tell by the stuttering and padding he uses on these occasions that he is desperately trying to look out on to the course to see what is going on, having missed it on the TV monitor. If he had been using his binoculars in the first place, he might have been following the action properly.
I know TV commentators are supposed to describe what the viewer is actually seeing but surely it’s lazy to rely on the monitor completely.
After all, as has been pointed out in the past elsewhere on this forum, the shot the BBC uses of him in the commentary box makes great play of the fact that he supposedly uses this huge pair of heavy-duty industrial static-positioned binoculars. If only. Mind you, I seem to remember reading that Tommo uses the monitor exclusively for his racecourse commentaries.
With Jim McGrath, you could sometimes hear John Hanmer, his spotter, in the background, who would be in the commentary box with him, prompting him with the name of a faller or something else he had missed. Don’t know whether Hanmer, an ex-racecourse and BBC commentator best known for his Grand National commentaries, is still a spotter for McGrath.
I think Aussie Jim must get bonus payments for every time he says "further back in the field", "next in the field", "out deeper on the track" and "nicely clear".
Often he says "further back in the field" about 10 times in a race, often in close succession to each other. The irritating thing is that other commentators think they have to say it now too. Simon Holt, Ian Bartlett and Stewart Machin are the worst offenders.When Lee McKenzie was the course commentator at Market Rasen more than 20 years ago, he showed a commendable willingness to be enterprising and used the top of the lid of his fully-opened attache case as a makeshift ledge to rest his binoculars on as he did the commentary, rather than holding them in his hands. I have never seen anyone else do that.
Now he seems to do a lot of his commentaries from the monitor, often saying things like "on the left of picture" or "on the right of frame", which is a bit of an insult to the crowd at the racecourse, who should be his first priority as the course commentator. The crowd watching with their own binoculars won’t be able to see a TV picture, except in the unlikely event of there being a big screen on course..
Lee does still use bins for his commentary – he is the only commentator I know who turns up at a racecourse with a photographers tripod to which he attaches his bins, it always makes me smile. See he has progressed from balancing them on his briefcase!!
Jim McGrath seems to do all his BBC TV commentaries from the monitor, hence it often throws him completely when a runner falls and, because of a bad camera shot or a bad angle, he can’t see who it is and hastily has to look up from the monitor and desperately try to look out at the course to see who it is who has fallen. Very lazy.
Not lazy but when doing an exclusive television commentary they are expected to work from the monitors most of the time – there would be plenty of complaints, especially if the field splits, if the camera shows one group and the commentator calls the other group. The same consideration applies to a lesser extent in terms of the on-course commentary.
Jim does indeed have a spotter and it is still John Hamner, most of the time, although Darren does sometimes spot for him.
But I do agree there can be too much reliance on the monitor, however in the callers defence they do have digital displays and the image on the monitor is quite often far clearer than you would see through bins and a great deal clearer than you will get on your TV at home.
Having seen most of the callers in action the vast majority do use a mix of monitor and bins, although there are one or two who are wholly reliant on the monitor.
The "usual" pattern of mix is the monitor is used, obviously, when the runners are out of sight, plus when they are running towards / away from the stands. For example there isn’t a snowballs chance in hell of getting anything decent through the bins at Newmarket before the final six furlongs and if the sun is out then it is even less.
Nearly all callers switch to the bins in the final stages, unless it is a poor commentary position. Salisbury, in particular, and Warwick have commentary positions well short of the line and neither are helped by the position of the "line" cameras. When the commentary position is near the line the commentators view can often be obstructed by cameras or other physical problems.
There is one course, with narrow enclosures, where the commentary box is situated right on the line but because of obstructions the commentator actually cannot see a five yard strip of ground nearest the stands rail, unless he stands on a box and leans out of the window.
Bins are also often used when runners are on the far side of the course.
Speaking of the sun, if it is a sunny day then spotting through the bins is all the more difficult because of glare. If you get a sunny day at Huntingdon, for example, then using the bins when the runners are on the far side is nigh on impossible because the sun glares off the lake in the centre of the course.
Similarly Kempton under floodlights is very difficult through bins, especially when they are near the end of the back straight on the outer loop – it is very hard to differentiate the colours.
So although it is easy to criticise commentators for relying on the monitors there are often good reasons why they do use them.
Good post Paul , some interesting stuff here , like Grayson I paid particular attention to Lee at a meeting recently , thought he was excellent , better than anyone in fact , I dont know why , but recently I seem to be aware that Holt and Barty are shouting their heads off more than normal , which is not good (Hunt is gone shouting mad as well )
A good thread imo , interesting stuff from Craig too
Ricky
With his trilby hat and thick glasses, he was quite a sight. I know Jeremy Grayson knows a lot about Mr B.J. Branfoot’s commentaries for point-to-points long after he retired from the rota for meetings under rules.
I know a little bit.
Jeremy Branfoot was still the commentator at the Duke of Beaufort Point-to-Point meeting at Didmarton when I worked there in 2007, though I’d need to check my notes to confirm whether that was his last year of doing so.I do know that Darren Owen had taken over the Didmarton gig by 2009, though, and continues to be engaged there.
I’m afraid Mr Branfoot was struggling rather on the day I was there. The fields were big but the viewing at this very long-established Gloucestershire line is good enough to assist in that regard, and the performance did just hint at a bit of a lack of regular match practice.
I honestly don’t know if Didmarton was his last-remaining gig or whether he was still doing a few other Point venues in the locality – if he was, I don’t think he is now, as the likes of Siddington (Martin Harris) and Andoversford (Lord Christopher Leigh, Gareth Topham) have engaged other people on my visits during 2010 and 2011.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
[. Don’t know whether Hanmer, an ex-racecourse and BBC commentator best known for his Grand National commentaries, is still a spotter for McGrath.
He was of 2010, photo below..
Interesting to see the photo including John Hanmer. I haven’t seen it before.
To me, the archetypal BBC TV Grand National race commentary team was Peter O’Sullevan, John Hanmer and Julian Wilson. I used to like John Hanmer’s middle sections, especially as he got two territories per circuit, once when Peter O’Sullevan handed over to him near the Melling Road and again when Julian Wilson did so after the Valentine’s Brook section (" …as we rejoin John Hanmer").
I remember Jim McGrath paying tribute to Hanmer’s more than 20 years of service in that role. It was a shame when a less-than-perfect commentary a few years ago resulted in an almost immediate announcement by the BBC that it would be Ian Bartlett who would replace him the next year. It was ironic that, I think the previous year, he was the hero of the hour when Tony O’Hehir’s microphone suffered problems and he was silenced for the National, meaning that Hanmer had to keep on commentating past his usual territory and into O’Hehir’s Becher’s Brook and beyond territory.
I used to love John Hanmer’s hoarse, throaty, seemingly laryngitis-induced voice reeling off the names of horses like The Pilgarlic year after year in the National. It spawned plenty of Rory Bremner-style impressions from me.
I also thought John Hanmer made a good partnership with Jimmy Lindley as paddock commentators for the Flat racing coverage on BBC TV. Hanmer was always admirably cool and factual, by comparison with the warmer and more genial Jimmy Lindley. It did annoy me that Lindley could never get his colleague’s name right. He always said: "Before we join John Hamner, let’s have a look at the betting" (instead of "Hanmer"). Richard Pitman always called him "Hamner" instead of "Hanmer". I was always amazed Hanmer didn’t quietly correct them off-TV. There’s nothing more annoying than a supposedly close colleague repeatedly getting your name wrong when broadcasting to thousands of viewers.
Hanmer had to return to the racecourse commentating rota after a lengthy absence when his BBC work began to dry up because of cutbacks and the advent of "celebrity" pundits like Willie Carson. Jimmy Lindley was an ex-jockey but it never seemed like it. He always seemed a very good and polished broadcaster in his own right to me.
Mustn’t forget, as this is supposed to be a Lee McKenzie thread, that Lee did John Hanmer’s equivalent stretch of the National course for BBC Radio for many years. BBC Radio, though, had John Penney as a fourth commentator for the second of Hanmer’s TV territories after Valentine’s.
It’s good that Hanmer has stayed on the BBC books as a spotter.
Some would say his finest hour was when he commentated on the final races in Frankie Dettori’s Magnificent Seven at Ascot.
As has been said before, Peter O’Sullevan was never keen to commentate on-the-hoof for shoulder races he had not previously fulled prepared for. It therefore fell to Hanmer to commentate on the races that really made the record books for Dettori.My early memories of the Grand National include the atmospheric voices of Hanmer and O’Hehir, neither of whom was heard often thus bringing an additional element of uniqueness to the National.
[.
Some would say his finest hour was when he commentated on the final races in Frankie Dettori’s Magnificent Seven at Ascot.
As has been said before, Peter O’Sullevan was never keen to commentate on-the-hoof for shoulder races he had not previously fulled prepared for. It therefore fell to Hanmer to commentate on the races that really made the record books for Dettori.I thought Hanmer was the course commentator that day and bbc just used that for the videos. Im sure On the frankie dettori "goes wateva" video that has mysteriously gone missing from youtube that you can overhear the crowd in the background but no commentato,r leading me to believe Hanmer was on course duty that day.
I also remember one becher chase, Angus Loughran introducing Hanmer as Jim McGrath. Hanmer rasping back "its john Hanmer actually!". He then went on to call the wrong faller at the 1st before quickly correcting himself. I could never quite grasp why they needed 2 commentators side by side each other in the box for this race.
Ps im sure Lee Mckenzie must be thinking why have I got 4365 posts about myself!!
Love the way this thread has meandered down memory lane. An oasis of relief from the whip frenzy.
Dave – I think Jim McGrath may have been on course duty at Ascot (purely based on a clip seen recently on ATR), so Hanmer was indeed on "shoulder race" duty for the Beeb when he had his moment in the sun calling the tail end of Dettori’s Seven Timer.
Also, re the Angus "Statto" Loughran incident at Aintree, I think for the Becher Chase the Beeb (until last year when Croc went solo) posted a second commentator at Bechers.
Incidentally, the O’Sullevan/Hanmer/Wilson combo called every consecutive National from 1972 (replacing Raliegh Gilbert – presumingly due to hia work for ITV – hey I wasn’t born until 1974!) til 1992 (21 runnings) until McGrath replaced Wilson at Bechers for the void race of 1993. Like others I’m sure hearing the different voices at different parts of the course adds to the vividity of the memory. Likewise with the Ces. I can remember the Grainger/Gilbert/Goode combination of the early 80’s which made the early stages appear like on another part of the world!
Great memories!
When did Michael O’Hehir’s National commentary cease? And did Tony O’Hehir ever commentate on the big race for the Beeb? I seem to recall he did but have no idea if that is an accurate memory.
Michael O’Hehir is most famous for the Foinavon fence pile-up National. His son, Tony O’Hehir, did the Becher’s Brook fences, the territory of Julian Wilson in the old days, for the BBC in the National until being given the push a few years ago, supposedly on cost-cutting grounds.
The BBC had four commentators again for a while until dispensing with Tony O’Hehir and having Jim McGrath, Ian Bartlett and Darren Owen.
As I have said before, I think Darren Owen is easily the best and most fluent of the trio, although Ian Bartlett is very good too (despite the mess-up he made in the French race earlier this year).
I only ever heard Raleigh Gilbert’s voice on a clip shown as part of a montage of National highlights on Grandstand once. Have never heard it since. If anyone has a link to a clip of the whole race, would be grateful.
Tony O’Hehir is always a bit dour and breathy in his commentaries. My girlfriend summed it up once when I was trying to get her to enthuse about the TV National commentators and all she could say was: "I don’t like the Irish one."
Jeremy Branfoot was still the commentator at the Duke of Beaufort Point-to-Point meeting at Didmarton when I worked there in 2007, though I’d need to check my notes to confirm whether that was his last year of doing so.
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