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The ability to get 2 year olds to win would be quite low down the list of why I think he is one but there you go. Fair enough if you don’t think Henry was a genius – your opinion.
Just glad you agree it is possible for a trainer to be one which is the debate here.
Sir Henry was my all time fav Trainer Joni,I loved his style on and off the Racecourse,I use the ability to get 2yo’s to win on their debut as an example of how you could confidently bet a Cecil horse 1st time out knowing it was trying and was fit…..Unlike someone like say er…John Gosden.
I loved Guy Harwood,Steve Norton and John Mackie as Trainers but none were in the Martin Pipe mould.I believe there are Geniuses in all walks of life.’The Stranglers’ are musical Geniuses,Giovanni Antonio Canal was an artistic Genius,Sir Richard Branson a business Genius and of course myself an Ante-Post Genius.Like I said you need to be the best of the best to be classed a Genius and Sir Henry wasn’t far off…..Lady Cecil doesn’t come near even though I personally think the way she has handled ‘Noble Mission’ is phenomenal.Modern day Musical Genius.
Can’t agree Stevie. Losing it implies the person is some how lesser at their job, like they forgot the training techniques they once implemented. It’s like saying cecil was a genius, then when the good ones dried up he wasn’t a genius, but along came frankel and hes a genius again. The word has been scaffed and devalued. It’s a word that should be reserved for a select view. Now the word is used by racing fans with winning tickets, spotty music listeners who think 60’s hits were wrirren ‘yesterday’ and folks who think media figures saying something stupid is a statement of futuristic ingenuity. It’s all about who you know.
Agree completely that the word has been "scaffed"- what a lovely word that is by the way! Of course that is not the debate here but you are right.
For me even if Henry had never returned from the doldrums what he did in his career up until then still qualified him. What happened from Light Shift onwards only cemented it and what happened with Frankel put a lovely juicy cherry on the top.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I often wonder what kind of heights Michael Dickinson would’ve scaled had he stayed in the UK.
I think gordon and joni are sarcastically ganging up on me. I can’t tell if these punting assassins are tag teaming me like the legion of doom. Gordon started smoking weed and listening to the beatles when he turned 64. Joni gets paid to tell people how to speak properly. How do i tell them that ya’ll know me, still same old ‘og’, but i beeen low key, hated on by most these forumites with no cheese, no deals and no g’s, no boats no snow mobiles and no skis ?
I think gordon and joni are sarcastically ganging up on me. I can’t tell if these punting assassins are tag teaming me like the legion of doom. Gordon started smoking weed and listening to the beatles when he turned 64. Joni gets paid to tell people how to speak properly. How do i tell them that ya’ll know me, still same old ‘og’, but i beeen low key, hated on by most these forumites with no cheese, no deals and no g’s, no boats no snow mobiles and no skis ?
Talkin in riddles Wolf wont confuse me from an ‘OG’ to a ‘GO’ldikova,yo still bidin north a the borda?
Can’t agree Stevie. Losing it implies the person is some how lesser at their job, like they forgot the training techniques they once implemented. It’s like saying cecil was a genius, then when the good ones dried up he wasn’t a genius, but along came frankel and hes a genius again. The word has been scaffed and devalued. It’s a word that should be reserved for a select view.
It’s all about opinions LW but you can’t get away from the fact that the Stoute team were operating below par for at least a couple of years.
Even when you get a below par crop in you would think that there are still races to be won with some of them. It’s a lot harder work finding the right race for a horse who needs to ply his trade in handicap company than it is to take a star through maiden, listed and then group races but other stables have to do precisely that with lesser talented material.
The Stoute team seemed to lose impact at all levels, rather than Group 1 in particular and the two year olds, who are not the most forward types anyway, seemed well away from what was required, even in the 7f and mile races where the advantage of the speedier, more precocious, youngster is largely negated deeper into the season.
Anyway, back to "genius" and for me it manifests itself in someone who is so talented that they don’t have to work very hard, if at all, to reach the top in the field the operate in.
Some trainers weigh their horses and use blood results and other scientific data to gauge their horses well being and fitness. I recall Henry Cecil being asked if he employed any of these methods and replying that he simply did it all by judging with the eye how the horse was within itself. To me that is at least some small indicator of a natural talent that might be called genius by some fans.
Racing is a sport that ranges from the cynical "spam and chips" that is consumed by the masses day to day, right up to the Group 1 level where long serving masters of their trade raise romantic notions garner admiration from their followers. It would take a cold heart not to have watched Lady Cecil humbly acknowledging her staff and the legacy of her fallen husband. The cold fact is that the stable had a poor year, somewhat salvaged by one horse who was outstanding for the yard. However, for that while after the Champion Stakes, it was worth forgetting about that and enjoying the emotional moment as the horse dug deep, and with his fellow older, broken down stallion Al Kazeem, came away from the Young Pretender Free Eagle.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
The cold fact is that the stable…
… didn’t have the same ammunition as the likes of Ballydoyle can provide.
If I took the present leading NH trainer in Ireland and appointed him to run Ballydoyle, would he need to be a genius to do so successfully ? I don’t think so.
Nice post that Stevie.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
The cold fact is that the stable…
… didn’t have the same ammunition as the likes of Ballydoyle can provide.
Gee whiz,
nobody
has the fire power that Ballydoyle has, that’s a pretty desperate comparison there.
If you take out Noble Mission, the biggest pot of money won by Lady Cecil in the last 12 months was 28 grand from Mighty Yar in a handicap, followed by 26 grand trousered by Joyeuse in a listed race. When Khalid Abdullah is one of your owners that is not a lot of return.
Even a big fan like Jonibake admitted he was concerned at the stable form coming into the Champion Stakes and I am not writing to criticise the stable here, but to celebrate a wonderful moment from a romantic perspective.
It seems odd that you pick my post to level criticism at when the original poster asked the question regarding Lady Cecil and genius.
Why not take him to task? Are you afraid the "I agree with Mike" boys will get on your back?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Nice post that Stevie.
Cheers Joni, as usual you have made a good case for the defence of your hero.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Sorry to bang on about it but aiden has the most pressurised training job in Britain. No other trainer has to train horses with his bosses telling him where to place horses. Sir Henry never did neither did Michael stoute or the likes of Luca cumani. The fact that tapestry ran at a mile after a brilliant win in the Yorkshire oaks says it all. I doubt aiden would have chosen that path. Aiden is a genius along with Vincent obrien,sir Henry and Noel murless. Yes you do need the ammunition as willie Mullins has over the jumps but as Vincent obrien found out at the end of his career you can’t keep doing it without the quality of horse needed.
Sorry to bang on about it but aiden has the most pressurised training job in Britain. No other trainer has to train horses with his bosses telling him where to place horses. Sir Henry never did neither did Michael stoute or the likes of Luca cumani. The fact that tapestry ran at a mile after a brilliant win in the Yorkshire oaks says it all. I doubt aiden would have chosen that path. Aiden is a genius along with Vincent obrien,sir Henry and Noel murless. Yes you do need the ammunition as willie Mullins has over the jumps but as Vincent obrien found out at the end of his career you can’t keep doing it without the quality of horse needed.
I suppose you are right Edina there is lots of pressure that comes with that responsibility. Of course it is a different kind of pressure to those small trainers who are wondering where their next winner might be coming from or how many owners they can attract, but it is pressure nonetheless.
You are well within your rights to consider him a genius I think. Aiden’s record is amazing and his achievements over a relatively short period are unparalleled. What I would say however is that one look at the entries for the two mile maiden races at Leopardstown this Sunday gives a little clue as to the extraordinary fire-power he has at his disposal. He has 17 entries, 11 of which are Galileo’s. Most stables would be lucky to get this many over 5 years and even some of the big yards would not have that many in their whole string. In this year’s Horses in Training he is down as having 51 2 year olds, 32 of which are Galileo’s with most of the rest being Montjeu’s.
So they are virtually all bred to be superstars and yet year after year how many of these end up breaking their backs pace-making or being sold on to Mike De Kock? Does he get the best out of all his horses? I would say no. Perhaps that is almost impossible with that many good horses but I often wonder how different the careers of some of his would be if they were handled by any other trainer who is not juggling Galileo’s. Does he always do the right thing by the horse? I would say no. Witness Tapestry. You argue it is not his fault and you are probably right but here lies the rub for me; when you think of Vincent you think of Vincent. When you think of Henry you think of Henry. When you think of Aiden you think of Coolmore.
Pressure there may be but lets not forget Coolmore have given Aiden racing riches beyond most people’s dreams and also provided jobs for pretty much the whole family. Most people would want that kind of pressure I think.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
t
rainers are not ‘geniuses’. They just run well-managed operations, the more successful ones invariably assisted by large amounts of cash.
Enough with this nonsense.
I think this was a very cavalier , tongue in cheek post , not much consideration given to the fall out , or maybe that was the pourpose to illicit outrage and some silly replies !!
To totally kill this nonsensical whim , I give you Trainers , past , ie , the legendary Vincent O Brien , Dick Hern , Jeremy Tree ,Noel Murless, to name a few…these men were miles ahead of their time , and in O Briens case ,the things he tried and was successful with were outrageously brilliant
Its a shame you consigned all of these trainers to the rubbish bin with your post Mike , it is downright disgraceful in my opinion, shows a great disrespect for the history of our game
This is a classic case of tinpot thinking
I only wish it was tongue-in-cheek Ricky but actually this is the second such thread as well as the one about not believing in such a thing as trainer form.
Amazing that some people agree with him though.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
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