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Mr Wilson, knowing the OP, he’ll be back to defend his own corner. Be ready.
All I’m saying is that Kauto offered nothing new on Boxing Day. If he ran off 12 st 7lb in the Hennessy next year (like Arkle), you wouldn’t hear a peep out of me. That’s competition. That’s exciting. That tells us something new.
As it stands, a fourth or a fifth or a sixth King George doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know about this great horse and takes a lot of the fun out of the Kempton festival.
On your other point, when I started racing, before Pipe, there was nowhere near this kind of dominance. Mercy Rimell, Josh Gifford, Fred Winter, Gordon Richards, Bill Stephenson, Ryan Price, David Elsworth, the Easterby brothers are just some of the names I can remember.
When Dickinson showed signs of dominating the NH game like Nicholls does now, he packed it in and started flat racing because he had nothing left to prove.
I like to think of it this way: I admire the way Alex Ferguson is able to lead his team to the league title almost every year but I get more excited about the prospect of them being beaten by Southend in the Cup.
In racing terms, I admire Kauto Star hugely but my ‘moment’ of the year was a 100/1 National winner (and not just because I had money on him)
I can also see the OP’s point. The whole meeting seems to encapsulate the lack of competition inherent at the core of NH racing before March and April.
Moving the debate on, it takes a certain kind of person to thoroughly enjoy complete domination in sport.
For example, Man Utd, Woods, Taylor, Schumacher, Davis in the eighties, Pipe in the nineties, Coolmore two years ago and, of course, Paul Nicholls and Kauto Star the past three seasons. But there are also as many sports mad people who walk away flat at the predictability of it all, which is the OP’s point I think.
Competition, unpredictability, change, sharing prizes, win-wins, sustainability and challenges to the established order are the fundamental aspects of any sport which keep me interested.
Some disappointing responses on here and another new AW basher too. Sigh.
Hard for me to argue with any of that, Max – very nicely put.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
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I don’t know about complete domination but nothing give me more pleasure than watching the best of the best reaching their sporting goals.
The great thing about horse racing is it isn’t predictable. Sure most people expected Kauto Star to win but very few expected an Arkle-like performance we saw.
Moments like that come along very few times in your lifetime and those who can’t appreciate them perhaps they do need a new hobby.
Personally I’m glued to the screen fingers crossed he doesn’t get one wrong, falls or worse.
If like someone suggested they stuck 12st7lbs and he beat some monkey giving him 2st I can’t see me getting the same buzz as I would him winning another King George or even better beating Denman by 20 lengths in the Gold Cup. What a buzz that would be.
That of course one side of the coin and I do get pleasure out of many different sides of the game.
Even the AW has got me interested despite the lack of quality. Mind you it’s more from a betting point of view. I sort out 2-4 races from the cards and back place only Betfair which is quite exciting but boy oh boy are there some bad horses in that tor not?
Anyone who reckons that is more fun than watching the Champion Hurdle has got a screw loose or is just plain odd IMO.
For me the ultimate buzz is spotting one early. For example if I had said, the first time I laid eyes on him(I didn’t by the way), Istabraq was going to win 3 Champion Hurdles I wouldn’t get sick of watching him had he won ten at 10/1 on.
Most humans (don’t know about you androids) watch sport in the hope their team, their heroes etc full fill their dreams and expectations. For someone to say they find watching Kauto Star boring……….They should ask Terry Norman to lend them his "Ba Humbug" hat and wear it till next Xmas
Cheers GC
"If like someone suggested they stuck 12st7lbs and he beat some monkey giving him 2st I can’t see me getting the same buzz as I would him winning another King George or even better beating Denman by 20 lengths in the Gold Cup. What a buzz that would be"
It was me, Fist. I’d be the opposite. Watching a great horse like Kauto attempt to give, say, 5lb to Denman, 10lb to Imperial Commander, 15lb to Madison, 20lb to Punchestowns etc (forgive the lack of technical knowledge), would be more interesting to me than watching him win the KG again. That becomes like show jumping. A handicap would be better for the Levy too imo.
The old guard used to use the big handicaps as a benchmark in NH racing. Why did that change? Do you remember Crisp, Fist? A celestial mover, utterly beguiling and a horse with no fear of the big handicaps.
Anyway there’s only so many times you can admire a beautiful painting without wanting to move on to something new but I accept I might be in a minority here.
Moving the debate on, it takes a certain kind of person to thoroughly enjoy complete domination in sport.
For example, Man Utd, Woods, Taylor, Schumacher, Davis in the eighties, Pipe in the nineties, Coolmore two years ago and, of course, Paul Nicholls and Kauto Star the past three seasons. But there are also as many sports mad people who walk away flat at the predictability of it all, which is the OP’s point I think.
Competition, unpredictability, change, sharing prizes, win-wins, sustainability and challenges to the established order are the fundamental aspects of any sport which keep me interested.
You omitted Sangster/O’Brien/Piggott. Good ol’ or bad ol’?
The name of the sport is Horse Racing
Never understood this obsession with the bit-playing humans involved
The horse is everything; the horse is what I love; the horse is what I watch; the horse is what I care about. Who owns, trains and rides it is, as far as I’m concerned, an irrelevance.
Some may spend their waking hours glued to the owners, trainers and jockeys tables, some may even enjoy listening to what they say. Not me
Should Pipe, Nicholls, Coolmore, Godolphin win everything so be it
An individual may dominate but does so with many different horses competing in a rich variety of races under an equally rich variety of conditions. Master Minded and Kauto Star: different beasts, different races. Does it matter one jot that they share the same connections?
That is the difference between the primary obvious domination by a single sporting entity such as Man Utd, Woods, Taylor et al and the secondary hidden domination of racing folk charged with the primary objective of readying a number of individual horses to win mutually exclusive races – the sport
IMVHO
As for top NH horses running in handicaps, well fings may not quite be what they used to be but all remains rather more rosy than it’s ever been on the Flat.
When did you last see a Derby winner carry topweight in an open handicap Max?
Personally I was hoping Sea The Stars would give weight in the Cambridgeshire rather than take the soft, safe option in the Arc next day
LOL Drone. STS would have beaten Supaseus with you or I on its back. Probably with both of us up there.
You can bet safely that I’d convert most Stakes races to handicaps, Sir, flat or jumps, because handicaps are good for the Levy, hence good for sustainability.
But isn’t the ultimate purpose of Group One races on the level to fill the breeding sheds and provide the victor with the fleeting company of a bluebooded filly?
Didn’t the old school NH trainers want to Test their geldings for the sake of the sport because there was nowhere else for them to go?
Otherwise no argument with your post. Once again, different poles.
- Total Posts 17716
Cheers GC
"If like someone suggested they stuck 12st7lbs and he beat some monkey giving him 2st I can’t see me getting the same buzz as I would him winning another King George or even better beating Denman by 20 lengths in the Gold Cup. What a buzz that would be"
It was me, Fist. I’d be the opposite. Watching a great horse like Kauto attempt to give, say, 5lb to Denman, 10lb to Imperial Commander, 15lb to Madison, 20lb to Punchestowns etc (forgive the lack of technical knowledge), would be more interesting to me than watching him win the KG again. That becomes like show jumping. A handicap would be better for the Levy too imo.
The old guard used to use the big handicaps as a benchmark in NH racing. Why did that change? Do you remember Crisp, Fist? A celestial mover, utterly beguiling and a horse with no fear of the big handicaps.
Anyway there’s only so many times you can admire a beautiful painting without wanting to move on to something new but I accept I might be in a minority here.
I remember Crisp’s National who doesn’t. What ride Richard Pitman gave him between the first and last fence before his memory gave out when he forgot he was a jockey and thought "I’m a bag of coal"
Thing is I think Kauto would give Denman 10lbs round Newbury or Kempton and kick him into touch and I don’t need him to do it to tell me that’s how good he is.
No one can say Denman isn’t up there with some of the greats. 2 Hennessy’s carrying top weight, even if the race isn’t what it used to be and a Gold Cup win make him special and without doubt he’s as good as he ever was.
I want to see Kauto win the Gold Cup this season by the same distance or more as he did last season and put the record straight. Then I can say I have seen the two greatest chasers of all time and no comparisons necessary. That would be the ultimate buzz.
You can bet safely that I’d convert most Stakes races to handicaps, Sir, flat or jumps, because handicaps are good for the Levy, hence good for sustainability.
But isn’t the ultimate purpose of Group One races on the level to fill the breeding sheds and provide the victor with the fleeting company of a bluebooded filly?
Didn’t the old school NH trainers want to Test their geldings for the sake of the sport because there was nowhere else for them to go?
A truism indeed Max, different objectives
Forgive me, I was a little narked that a self-confessed Flat lover had the temerity to question the ‘sportsmanship’ of NH as I was under the impression you adored those pampered two-season Group horses and wouldn’t entertain the idea of them running off marks of 125+ in handicaps. It seems not
Personally I like both Conditions/Stakes and Handicaps and wish they were regarded as being of equal merit – in both codes
Going back to one team/person ‘domination’ in other sports. I actually admire individuals who are consistently better than their peers and render their sport ‘uncompetitive’ whilst at the top of their game. Back in the ’80s I wanted Steve Davis to win everything; I had nothing but admiration for the insular, intensely driven Nick Faldo; it was such a shame Brigadier Gerard lost a race; I hope AP McCoy wins 25 successive jockeys’ championships; Don Bradman’s failure to retire with a Test average of 100 (99.94) was one of the great sporting tragedies of the 20th century
; Phil Taylor would sleepwalk through the second-raters at Lakeside this week (ain’t Darts great )True sporting greats
The British have never been comfortable with success, preferring the Henmanesque ‘plucky British loser’
Going back to one team/person ‘domination’ in other sports. I actually admire individuals who are consistently better than their peers and render their sport ‘uncompetitive’ whilst at the top of their game. Back in the ’80s I wanted Steve Davis to win everything; I had nothing but admiration for the insular, intensely driven Nick Faldo; it was such a shame Brigadier Gerard lost a race; I hope AP McCoy wins 25 successive jockeys’ championships; Don Bradman’s failure to retire with a Test average of 100 (99.94) was one of the great sporting tragedies of the 20th century
; Phil Taylor would sleepwalk through the second-raters at Lakeside this week (ain’t Darts great )I’d be happy to see AP McCoy win 25 jockeys’ championships on the bounce, if he’d occasionally win on horses that I’m backing!
I’ll admit that much, Britain does have a very big ‘build them up to knock them down’ mentality. I do love to see an outsider triumph though. Not just in racing either.
Drone, its funny you should mention Taylor. I was going to write a post praising the BDO version of the Darts world because at least someone else gets a turn in the spotlight!
Taylor is so far ahead of the pack, turning out against him is pointless. I get bored of watching dominators like him after their second triumph. Coolmore’s eighteen Group Ones in 2008 absolutely killed me yet the praised heaped on the Tipperary outfit ensured I stayed silent all that year. Domination like that is unsustainable in the long term because everyone loses interest eventually.
Once again the yanks have the right idea with their NFL draft system. A team has to be truly legendary right from the hot dog boy to the chief executive to beat those kind of odds. Sticking an extra 15lb on all Nicholls and Henderson horses, giving Taylor’s opponents a leg or two start, or ensuring Kauto has to carry top weight in a million pound-to-the-winner Hennessy keeps the opposition, the crowd and those who bet on it all, absolutely buzzing. Imvho of course.
Taylor is so far ahead of the pack, turning out against him is pointless. I get bored of watching dominators like him after their second triumph
Otherwise it is an absolutely fascinating sport…
Max… you seriously suggesting penalising horses from one stable in all races because they are trained by a talented successful trainer?
Socialist racing?
Something like that, Clive. Yes.
If I’m going to buy a horse I want it to win a race or two. Would be nice. I’d like it win at the Grade One tracks one day. With Hoovers like Nicholls and Henderson winning everything in sight, what’s the point? I’ll play high stakes poker with my spare cash, thanks.
Plus, as a spectator, I’d rather six different trainers win the day’s six races. Elites frustrate and irritate me. Give me a win-win situation anyday, group happiness rather than that of the individual.
As I say, these kind of opinions are honest reflections, but not necessarily popular.
Bless ya, DJ. Why didn’t I think of that!
I once wrote to Ron Pickering to ask why the athletics authorities didn’t handicap swimmers with weight belts to make that dullest of spectacles of more interest to punters.
I mean, ffs, some of those sub-mariners win nine golds in one tournament! The first gold proves we have an exceptional aquaman: each additional one activates the law of diminishing returns. Steadily increasing weight burdens keeps us all interested.
The BBC trackman never replied.
Arkle’s 1965 Whitbread destruction really is the stuff of legend, up there with the twelve labours. Didn’t he once give three stone to a future Gold Cup winner in a handicap?
Don’t let Maxilon into the ahtletics federation. Usain Bolt will get bloody shackled !
Graeme, we already know Usain Bolt is the fastest man in the world. Ho hum. End of conversation on the train. What else is there to say? Phil Taylor is the best darts player in the world, ever. End of conversation on the bus. Nothing left to say. Schumacher’s F1 reign halved viewing figures for pap-pap racing in Europe. Unpredictablity gets people talking and watching.
Our country doesn’t need to stage a ruinously expensive narcissistic, post-imperial, corinthian vanity project to prove that, once again, Bolt is the ultimate pigeon catcher. We already know – what’s left to prove and anyway, who cares? I’m already stockpiling crack to keep myself awake in the summer of 2012.
Yet stick a three kg weight in Bolt’s Batman-style utility belt and let the people bet on the outcome and you’ve got something worth getting excited about. Bolt would probably be even money giving 3kg to the field but that has got to be better than threes on.
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