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The 4/1 on offer about Denman winning by more than four lengths may be worth a sporting bet.
Burn them off big fella, burn them off.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
A newcomer to the Forum here, so hello everyone – been following racing since the 1960’s and especially enamoured with National Hunt racing,though I don’t get as much time to study it nowadays with ever-increased committments.
May as well be controversial here and throw in my two pennyworth – personally, I think the whole Kauto Star v Denman thing is the most ridiculously overhyped nonsense I have seen in a long time. Granted Kauto Star has proved himself a decent horse, but it is hardly a vintage crop of steeplechasers at the moment, and what exactly has Denman beaten ?
The media in general seem to be so desperate to have a real champion that they are treating the whole thing like some kind of prize-fight, presumably because there is such a dearth in the steeplechasing department at the moment.Perhaps one’s memories become rosier with the passage of time, but I don’t rate the current crop of chasers at all, especially when I think back to what I believe to have been something of a golden age with the sport – the late 1960’s – early 1970’s – with the likes of Pendil, The Dikler, L’Escargot (surely one of the most under-rated horses of all), Titus Oates, Spanish Steps, Red Rum, Crisp, Bula ,Killiney etc etc – following on from Arkle, Mill House, Flyingbolt and others. Let’s not forget that L’Escargot not only won the Cheltenham Gold Cup twice, but also the Grand National (beating Red Rum by 15 lengths) and was also placed twice in the National and had the speed to win the Gloucesterhire Hurdle at the festival.Though Kauto Star has done well by today’s standards, I rate him lower than Desert Orchid and certainly lower than horses like L’Escargot.
Maybe he will win and Denman finish second – who knows ? – but it is just a horserace and no more exciting in my opinion than watching the stars of the 1970’s – possibly less so because there were far more of them back then.
Expecting flames, bullets etc – so armourplating on and bullet-proof jacket in place.Thick-skinned as well which helps !!!
Enjoy the Festival everyone.
Welcome!!! Just your luck you ran into me
I’ve been around for a long time not only did I see Arkle run but I seen all the others run too.
I agree the current crop look to lack the quality old days gone by. I could mention dozens more in Arkle’s era and in Pendils and Deserts Orchid’s time. But time plays tricks on you and you remember the good times but forget the bad times as you pint out. The Dickler was a good horse but he was no superstar Pendil/Pitman blew two gold cups Desert Orchid was beaten so many times it would make you cry and Red Rum can not be compared to Cold Cup horses. L’Escargot was a class act without realy grabbing people imagination.
I’ve seen them all even sat on Titus Oats but never once would I rate any horse within a stone of Arkle until now.
This Kauto Star is no ordinary animal and he like Arkle is a bit of a freak.
He would win the QMCC if they ran him in it…send him over 2m4f nothing can live with him and he put up the best Performance I have seen in 40 years in the King George at Kempton.
You talk about Dessie and I know he gave weight away etc., but he was also often beaten a whole load of times. His win in the Gold Cup was one of the least impressive I have ever scene……but when he was good he was very good but never once would I have spoke about him in the same breath as Arkle.
Kauto Star when he is 100% has never been taken of the bridle by any horse. He’s done it at all distances in all goings. He has an unbelievable cruising speed as horses like Dessie and Pendil had but with one big difference.
Instant acceleration. That makes him very very special as none of the above chasers had it and when he uses it he settles races within strides.
Even Arkle himself took time to get into top gear as was seen when a Pat Taffe got caught napping in the Hennessy by Stan Mellor.
At Kempton Ruby gave him a tap 5 fom home and without breaking sweat he left some very good animals absolutely stone dead……..he sauntered up to the line and his time was still better than Dessie was on the same race…….hell knows what time he would have done it in if something had been giving him a race over the last 5.
This may not be the best crop of chasers but Kauto is in a different calss to any of them and of those you mention IMO.
As far as Denman goes unless he is Arkle reborn he better start now. He’s way too one paced to beat Kauto, if he goes off too fast he will beat himslef. I really don’t foresee aproblem and it has been Hyped no doubt.
If you ran a poll who would win and compared the result to the price on Denman it would be laughable.
On Friday I expect Kauto to win the Gold Cup as easy as he won the King George and make people like you sit up and realise how special he really is.
I have being saying he’s the best since Arkle for over a year and I’m getting bored of repeating myself as I’m sure most guys on here are bored of me writing it……..so that’s my last contribution on Kauto Star until after the Gold Cup
Good Luck Kauto Star.
That is what every Kauto Star fan is trying to put across… but you put it across extremely well there. Kauto Star is the horse who got me interested in Horseracing and I try my best to see him whenever I can. I study videos of him over and over, and you always recognise the acceleration between the second last and the last fence, I think if he is close enough to Denman the latter will just be another name on the list of horses which he has beat.
Once Kauto goes past a horse there is NO coming back.
I was reading an article today
(http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-r … nham-2008/ clash-of-jumping-greats-we-never-got-to-witness-1311674.html)
about Arkle and Flyingbolt, and I am making no comparisons because I wasn’t around in that era and didn’t know the horses. The characteristics sound the same though. Arkle (Kauto Star) was the superstar of the yard and was classy, stylish champion, who seems a kind animal and Denman (Flyingbolt) who was always seen as second best to the champion and never gave in, but it says
"In the end the result was inconclusive. Flyingbolt didn’t get to put one over on his rival, but he hadn’t shirked the challenge either."
and I think that will be the outcome of the gold cup (without the ‘in’ from inconclusive..
Cannot wait though and being as it is my first trip to Cheltenham I have had sleepless nights already!
The gold cup is a one horse rac
Kauto Star is that horse. If he jumps he wins.
I’ve a horrible feeling you might be right. How good is Denman’s form?
I imagine Sam Thomas kicking on 6 out trying to stretch them, and only for Ruby to follow him on the bridle, turning in 2 out and Denman has had enough – Kauto and 2/3 others come past. Hope I’m wrong, but this is the race were we find out how good Denman is.A newcomer to the Forum here, so hello everyone – been following racing since the 1960’s and especially enamoured with National Hunt racing,though I don’t get as much time to study it nowadays with ever-increased committments.
May as well be controversial here and throw in my two pennyworth – personally, I think the whole Kauto Star v Denman thing is the most ridiculously overhyped nonsense I have seen in a long time. Granted Kauto Star has proved himself a decent horse, but it is hardly a vintage crop of steeplechasers at the moment, and what exactly has Denman beaten ?
The media in general seem to be so desperate to have a real champion that they are treating the whole thing like some kind of prize-fight, presumably because there is such a dearth in the steeplechasing department at the moment.Perhaps one’s memories become rosier with the passage of time, but I don’t rate the current crop of chasers at all, especially when I think back to what I believe to have been something of a golden age with the sport – the late 1960’s – early 1970’s – with the likes of Pendil, The Dikler, L’Escargot (surely one of the most under-rated horses of all), Titus Oates, Spanish Steps, Red Rum, Crisp, Bula ,Killiney etc etc – following on from Arkle, Mill House, Flyingbolt and others. Let’s not forget that L’Escargot not only won the Cheltenham Gold Cup twice, but also the Grand National (beating Red Rum by 15 lengths) and was also placed twice in the National and had the speed to win the Gloucesterhire Hurdle at the festival.Though Kauto Star has done well by today’s standards, I rate him lower than Desert Orchid and certainly lower than horses like L’Escargot.
Maybe he will win and Denman finish second – who knows ? – but it is just a horserace and no more exciting in my opinion than watching the stars of the 1970’s – possibly less so because there were far more of them back then.
Expecting flames, bullets etc – so armourplating on and bullet-proof jacket in place.Thick-skinned as well which helps !!!
Enjoy the Festival everyone.
Welcome!!! Just your luck you ran into me
I’ve been around for a long time not only did I see Arkle run but I seen all the others run too.
I agree the current crop look to lack the quality old days gone by. I could mention dozens more in Arkle’s era and in Pendils and Deserts Orchid’s time. But time plays tricks on you and you remember the good times but forget the bad times as you pint out. The Dickler was a good horse but he was no superstar Pendil/Pitman blew two gold cups Desert Orchid was beaten so many times it would make you cry and Red Rum can not be compared to Cold Cup horses. L’Escargot was a class act without realy grabbing people imagination.
I’ve seen them all even sat on Titus Oats but never once would I rate any horse within a stone of Arkle until now.
This Kauto Star is no ordinary animal and he like Arkle is a bit of a freak.
He would win the QMCC if they ran him in it…send him over 2m4f nothing can live with him and he put up the best Performance I have seen in 40 years in the King George at Kempton.
You talk about Dessie and I know he gave weight away etc., but he was also often beaten a whole load of times. His win in the Gold Cup was one of the least impressive I have ever scene……but when he was good he was very good but never once would I have spoke about him in the same breath as Arkle.
Kauto Star when he is 100% has never been taken of the bridle by any horse. He’s done it at all distances in all goings. He has an unbelievable cruising speed as horses like Dessie and Pendil had but with one big difference.
Instant acceleration. That makes him very very special as none of the above chasers had it and when he uses it he settles races within strides.
Even Arkle himself took time to get into top gear as was seen when a Pat Taffe got caught napping in the Hennessy by Stan Mellor.
At Kempton Ruby gave him a tap 5 fom home and without breaking sweat he left some very good animals absolutely stone dead……..he sauntered up to the line and his time was still better than Dessie was on the same race…….hell knows what time he would have done it in if something had been giving him a race over the last 5.
This may not be the best crop of chasers but Kauto is in a different calss to any of them and of those you mention IMO.
As far as Denman goes unless he is Arkle reborn he better start now. He’s way too one paced to beat Kauto, if he goes off too fast he will beat himslef. I really don’t foresee aproblem and it has been Hyped no doubt.
If you ran a poll who would win and compared the result to the price on Denman it would be laughable.
On Friday I expect Kauto to win the Gold Cup as easy as he won the King George and make people like you sit up and realise how special he really is.
I have being saying he’s the best since Arkle for over a year and I’m getting bored of repeating myself as I’m sure most guys on here are bored of me writing it……..so that’s my last contribution on Kauto Star until after the Gold Cup
Good Luck Kauto Star.
Some good points made there Fist of Fury and I respect your opinion – after all, it is this which makes the whole thing so fascinating and it would not be good if we all agreed about everything.
I agree that Kauto Star looks to be a cut above the others but to me, Denman looks just to be a galloper and stayer with no acceleration (certainly not instant) and his Newbury win told us exactly nothing. The three horses he beat have not exactly distinguished themselves lately, but the press seem all too ready to be carried away in search of that second horse that they need to create a prize fight. Denman happens to fit the bill because he has a long winning streak, when he has beaten little of note – and of course, the fact that they are in boxes next to one another naturally grabs the media’s attention.
I do also agree that time can play tricks on the memory and as I get older, this does happen more and more often. My general impression though remains that the 1970’s produced a very good crop of chasers and though Red Rum was not Gold Cup class (he never ran in it, so connections obviously realised that, apart from the fact that it may have upset his National preparation), several Gold Cup horses contested the National back then (L’Escargot, The Dikler and Spanish Steps, to name just three). Whilst Pendil and Richard Pitman did blow two Gold Cups, I don’t think the horse stayed as well as The Dikler and he was unfortunate to be brought down by High Ken the following year.At his best, he was a superb jumper with a lot of speed (and I say that as someone who didn’t actually like Pendil very much). I agree too that Desert Orchid was beaten many times in his career, but I don’t regard winning most races as necessarily the sign of an outstanding horse. Golden Miller was beaten many times in his career, but won 5 Gold Cups AND a Grand National in record time. Could anyone seriously deny that he was a good horse ?
I will watch with interest what happens this week.
I watched Paddy Brennan’s interview the other day on one of the racing channels. He was asked which of the big two he thought would win.
He said that for ages could not see past Kauto Star. It was only until he rode Ollie Magern against Denman in the AON chase at Newbury that he changed his mind. He was literally blown away by Denman – on all levels, and now reckons Denman will beat Kauto Star.
Even Ruby Walsh is beginning to have doubts, saying that it will be much closer than many people think.
I am convinced Denman will win.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I’m not saying he’s a bad judge "H" most Jockeys would outguess a trainer 7 days a week but Olli MGern……they should find a one mile chase round hexam for him……..he got stuffed over 30 lengths on Tuesday maybe the winner of that is going ro beat Kauto too
I don’t want to get into the race again I’d rather read that article that our friend posted in Arkle and Flying bolt which I will do in a momemt (thanks)
What I will say is there are many different opionions. I put a long drawn out question to Philip Hobbs about the race. Did he thhink this or di he think that he answered it in three words. Kauto will win……..no if’s or but’s just that.
Who’s right and hwo wrong we’ll find out tomorrow.
If Denman does win he will be hailed as one of the best of all time. Good Luck to you "H" you have never lost faith in him once.
Me! I think Kauto Star already the second best chaser I have ever seen is and won’t hear of defeat.
Who is right won’t matter to us as we both want to see the same thing.
A star chaser who will go down in racing history
Who is right won’t matter to us as we both want to see the same thing.
A star chaser who will go down in racing history
The nighmare scenario being that if one ( or both… heaven forbid ) should fall. But you are dead right – whichever horse does win – be it Denman or Kauto ( I’m certain the others don’t have a prayer ) – then it won’t really matter a jot about egos. Racing will have a true champion on its hands and that is something we can all cherish.
Interesting to note that Harry Findlay, who won’t hear of defeat for his horse (naturally
) , nevertheless believes that should Denman win the Gold Cup this year, it does not necessarily make him a better horse than Kauto Star – who, let’s face it, is certainly the more versatile of the two.Even so, should Denman win tomorrow, I cannot see Kauto beating the big horse again over that trip – much in the same way Arkle broke the heart of Mill House, who failed in three subsequent attempts to gain revenge.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Well, i’ve bigged up the clash of the titans like most people, but after Sizing Europe got stuffed at a short price i’ve have to have a re-think. Basically, the point was made on a television phone-in the other day that by-and-large you need a horse to peak at Cheltenham. Now in the modern day with trainers more astute than ever this doesn’t mean you have to have a horse totally out of form for the whole season bar Cheltenham, and as we’ve seen so far with Tidal Bay and An Accordion if they are very good horses then they can keep progressing through the season. This may be the case with Kauto and Denman, that they are so good they will go and put in a lifetime best on Friday after a hard and exhilarating season, but the odds of that look about 1/2, and marginally in this case i’d rather now be a pessimist than a optimist. Yes they are well ahead of the rest, yes I want to see a clash of the titans, but hold on a minute, is there just a chance another Star might shine bright in the Gold Cup?
Granted, having had a big wager on him for it last year i’m a little bias, but I still believe there is a big race to be won with Star De Mohaison. From the first time I saw this horse run at Aintree a few years ago I knew he was one to follow. Since then he won the Royal & Sunalliance, a race they say horses find it hard to come out of, but I am sceptical about just how serious his injury was, and whether he’d for whatever reason slipped down the pecking order at the Nicholl’s stable. However, if there was a injury they must have caught it early, because unlike most horses who get injured after being pulled up in races, his injury was apparently sustained after beating The Listener in the intermediate chase at Sandown at the back end of 06. That was to be his last run over fences, and although I didn’t see his comeback run in a handicap hurdle at Cheltenham, it was no suprise to see a horse having a lay off only finishing third. Enough of the BS, I reckon if anything goes amiss with the front two, they cut each others throats or make a cock up with tactics, De Star will be cruising ready to pounce with his able jockey Mr Barry Geraghty. If i can burgle 40./1 on friday I may even have a similar bet to the one I had last year anti-post on him (before Kauto came on the scene in tremendous fashion in the Betfair chase)
In short, my principles of betting are to take on horses that have had hard campaigns and go with horses that are overpriced with a bit of class, and as much as I hope to see Foreman and Ali fight it out I hope Joe Frazier can come into the match in top form and turn the affair into a mini royal rumble. SO COME ON DE STARRRRRRRR…………….
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes…………………..I agree with so much of this – and I think that Star de Mohaison is very much the forgotten horse in all of this ridiculous hype.
Exotic Dancer is the forgotten horse with all this hype.
i cant help feeling that exotic dancer will be involved in the finish and i think it is far from a 2 horse race and must surely be a 3 horse race
Exotic Dancer is the forgotten horse with all this hype.
He certainly is. I haven’t forgotten him. Just wish he’d had a run to go onto the Gold Cup but if he’s at his best its a three horse race not a two horse one.
I dont think Exotic Dancer will win as he has had his heart broken many times now by Kauto Star and that has knocked him for six so i will think at best he will be in the top 6.
At the start of the season i would have been Kauto Star but at the moment i truly believe that Denman will get the measure of him as he seems to be a little bit better of a jumper and has a more fluent action and seems to be more of a better stayer at the trip.
Star de Mohaison is a forgotten horse and can run a big race at the odds with Barry Geraghty in the plate who knows how to get close to Kauto as his ride on Exotic Dancer in the Betfair Chase shows.
One horse who could belly his odds and win on a course who has a good record is Celestial Gold, beaten 29l by Denman in the AON Chase last month he could be one for a fun bet and 100 to 150-1 may be a huge price but he has only ran twice this season and with the David Pipe horses running into a good bit of form he might be a surprize package.
Afistfullofdollars from the Noel Meade yard has been suplemented for the race and may be worth keeping an eye on at 40-1 although at 10 he may be a little bit outclassed
So for me it is DENMAN who won the Hennessy in grand style back in November and has had some nice easy wins in the Lexus and in the AON chase and looks a lovley horse to watch in motion and for me is the one to be the first up the hill for a place in sporting history in an amazing week of the Cheltenham festival and more importantly the first to win the race to be interviewed by Tommo as soon as the red lollipop is passed
My view: Without Denman, Kauto Star would be a lay. Reason is he would be a short price and there are a lot of ‘no-hopers’ in the race which could take Kauto out or hamper him, causing a false result. With Denman in the race which some people seem to think can beat Kauto and therefore attracting money, Kauto becomes a back. We can only make judgement on what a horse has done and what we expect from them. Kauto is better than Denman. I just hope some rag doesn’t take Kauto out.
Thankyou Denman for providing us punters with an opportunity to make money by backing Kauto.
If anyone thinks that Findlay would hold a horse back for a season if he knew he was better than the current season champion chaser they are seriously deluded. Fair enough Denman is a good horse, just not good enough.
I wasnt convinced about Kauto before last years gold cup – but win he did and the performances since we havent seen any serious jumping errors. Denman is a monster of a horse but how good is he ?
… if they are both under pressure coming up the hill who would your money be on – both under serious pressure – then its down to guts. If they cut thier own throats and go too fast – getting too close to the odd fence could let in star or halcon/exotic (even star if he is good enough) if they are up to up it – the only alternatives. A slowly run tactitcal race would suit Kauto but will Denman’s jumping + stamina hold up. Kauto, as I see it, hasnt been put under pressure in his races because he is either a) too good or b) not been tested at the highest level. There have been many gold cup winners that havent delivered again in the gold cup – heavy wears the crown. The gold cup isnt contested but wannabe’s – most horses has some sort of chance.History tells the story – but tomorrow we will see – on softish going will Kauto cruise up and burn anything infront of him ?
Roll on tomorrow
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