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when I first became seriously interested in racing I didn’t realise that trainers actually bought horses; I thought that owners bought them and then chose which trainer to use. Surely success is a combination of finding good horses, having owners prepared to pay for good ones, knowing where to place them and very importantly having good loyal staff and experienced work riders.Does JP send horses to Jonjo or does he have a say in which horses are purchased? If it’s the former it must make it more difficult for him. Also I was told that some trainers are more swayed by the demands of the horses owners as to which races the horse goes for…
There’s a lot of truth in what you have been told. There is nothing worse than an interfering owner with little knowledge of what’s what……however a tough talking trainer will sort them out as if they did what the owner wanted most likely the horse would never win a race anyway. Not a lot to lose if he moves the horse.
I’m thinking of backing The Very Man at Lingfield tomorrow, do I need my head examined?
Decent horse in Ireland. Not really progressed in his three runs for Jonjo and beaten twice both at 6/5 and 2/1 under his stewardship. I can’t understand why they dropped him in trip last time at Newbury and ran him over fences when all his runs here and in Ireland were over hurdles, and in his two runs previous over 2 miles 6 he was noted at "staying on", so therefore maybe 3 miles was his trip not the 2 miles 3 furlongs they tryed him over last time?
All Jonjo’s admirers, before you bite my hand off read the form of this horse and tell me you come to a different conclusion. It’s these silly errors in the placement of horses, that even I can see thats leading people to beleive somethings wrong.
Hardly a silly placement he was beaten for toe a couple of times so they tried him over fences…..he’s not exactly slow though and not unusual to drop a horse back a few furlongs when going fencing……..as it turned out wouldn’t have mattered if it was 3 miles as he never jumped a twig.
He’s a decent price and ground is ideal for him. I’ll be having an ew look myself……..only wish things were normal and you could then bet him with more confidence…….race doesn’t look particularly hot though.
Marb,
Not sure what your on about mate! Do you think he should be kept over hurdles and not dropped in trip? The horse is a novice and FoF is correct, its not strange to drop a horse back in trip, as Peter Bowen has done with the Souffleur all season.
By the way, as stated previously, I am not a huge admirer of O’Neill, I think he is a very capable trainer. I just think there should be balance in this argument.
JohnJ
I agree with you entirely JJ we should make this a balanced argument…let’s shoot all those who are anti Jonjo except you…..we need someone to bury the bodies
Clive one of the most common things with punters they think trainers have a magic wand and think they can conjure up winners at will.
Since when?
I have yet to encounter any punter who thinks that
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Take one of your trainers you have said you admire on the flat, say, John Gosden, imagine his surprise when Raven’s Pass won first time out at Yarmouth. Gosden had three in the race with Jimmy Fortune (stable jockey) on Copywriter who faired worst of the three on the day.
JJ,
Interesting example and a race I had explained to me later by the jockey on the third Gosden horse.
Ravens Pass wasn’t quite making his debut – he’d been racing before but refused to enter the stalls and came close to injuring Fortune in the process. So when they tried him again, he was ridden by the work rider, David Kinsella who is employed by Gosden, as he’d been involved in getting him happy with the stalls at home. Fortune rode the other, not because it was the first string, but because he wasn’t willing to risk injury in a Yarmouth maiden. But there was never any doubt inside the stable that, if he consented to enter the stalls and race properly, Ravens Pass had the most ability.
AP
AP,
Thanks for that, my research should have been a little more thorough, I see that he broke the stalls at Newbury. However, I doubt John Gosden thought he was as he turned out, because I think he was quoted as saying that the Yarmouth maiden might not have been as sleepy as most people thought.
Marb, thanks for the info on The Very Man, I had a few bob at 7-1!
JohnJ.
The swine of the matter is JJ he never backed the horse……Hope I never put him off in any way but if I had told him to get stuck in and it had got beaten I would have felt worse.
The one that got me was Jonjo’s in the first today..I had planeed to bet it but when I saw the overnight forecast I wasn’t going to touch it as I thought it would be around 4/6 fav……….When I seen what they were actually backing as favourite I couldn’t believe my eyes…..Granted it finished in front of Jonjo’s but that was like 5 races ago and Jonjo’s although no great shakes has improved a fair bit since. I had never heard of the trainer so looked him up and he’s had the grand total of 2 runners in a year…….
Real scary I thought and lumped on Jonjos at 7/2………..been a funny day but worked out well.Didn’t you also mention some horse that bolted in on the flat yesterday?
Crocodile’s Rock – another potentially very good horse beaten in a garbage race at Hereford.
Jonjo frequently shows us evidence of his training ability TDK – Theatrical Moment this season being a prime example
Yes Irish Stamp – some people still seem to think he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Paul Nicholls and co though
Would these be the same people that think that Henrietta Knight is a top rated trainer also TDK? I have yet to come across any person on this forum who would mention O’Neill in the same breath as Nicholls. However, as previously stated, I can give you an example of any trainer who has not brought as horse forward that showed potential.
JohnJ.
The key is whether we are suprised by the failures of Crocodile Rock and Theatrical Moment in the same way we would be if they were in the hands of other trainers
Its a tough call to compare anyone with Nichols at the moment, but perhaps more relevant would be Hobbs or Henderson?
Of course every trainer has baffling flops….but
Didnt see the CR race. Is it worth speculating that he jumped badly?
I really don’t understand your point, so therefore based on your thinking we should be surprised at the heights scaled by Exotic Dancer?
JohnJ
You can pick individual horses to substantiate any point, but its the overall pattern that counts for me. Not something anyone can prove with stats perhaps, but i am surely not alone in thinking that JJ has far more than his fair share of animals that demonstrated real ability at an early stage go quickly backwards?
Above examples being a case in point
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