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To be honest Charlie, I am still trying to come to terms with the fact that a horse has an amount of ability, and that the trainer has nothing to do with it.
I can’t remember stating anything about trainers and what effect this has on horse ability Smithy
Can you point out what statement your referring to for me, as i think there may be a misunderstanding
Look, put Kauto Star with Alan Potts and you get Kauto Star because the horse has loads of natural ability
You lot seem to think trainers have the ability to turn carp into superstars, they don’t, just like K Fallon can’t win a G1 on a selling plater – he needs to have a horse with ability to do it
Horse ability is paramount in the success of that horse, not the trainer, jockey, stable lad, vet etc,etc
It was that bit, Charlie.
Look, put Kauto Star with Alan Potts and you get Kauto Star because the horse has loads of natural ability
You lot seem to think trainers have the ability to turn carp into superstars, they don’t, just like K Fallon can’t win a G1 on a selling plater – he needs to have a horse with ability to do it
Horse ability is paramount in the success of that horse, not the trainer, jockey, stable lad, vet etc,etc
It was that bit, Charlie.
Thanks Smithy, with you now
As stated the horse must have ability, P Nicholls cannot turn Le Volfoni into a horse of Kauto Star’s ability, that ability must already be within the horse must it not????
I think it all comes back to maximising the horse’s ability, Charlie – like a Magical Bailiwick type.
Anyway, this isn’t going anywhere any more, so perhaps we can draw line under it and move on to a new topic.
Cheers
PaulIsnt that their point though Charlie. No-one is suggesting that Le Volfoni is/can be Kauto Star. However, they are satisfied that Le Volfoni, positioned with Nicholls has reached the maximum potential it is capable of.
However, the people on this thread are suggesting that under the tutelage of Jonjo, that horse may not have reached that potential, possible in excess of 10-20 lb shy of that potential.
I think it all comes back to maximising the horse’s ability, Charlie – like a Magical Bailiwick type.
I agree, but who is to say if given the opportunity, Jonjo, Alan Potts, you, me or the postman couldn’t get the same results out of a horse that has the ability of Kauto Star
Anyway, this isn’t going anywhere any more, so perhaps we can draw line under it and move on to a new topic.
Cheers
PaulCorrect, have you got owt interesting you’d like to discuss???
Isnt that their point though Charlie. No-one is suggesting that Le Volfoni is/can be Kauto Star. However, they are satisfied that Le Volfoni, positioned with Nicholls has reached the maximum potential it is capable of.
However, the people on this thread are suggesting that under the tutelage of Jonjo, that horse may not have reached that potential, possible in excess of 10-20 lb shy of that potential.
Jonjo has took a 139 rated horse to a 172 horse, thus showing he is well capable when given the ammo and i would say this would happen with most trainers if they too were given similar ammunition
Nobody is saying that every horse can be turned into a superstar Charlie, we’re merely pointing out that whereas horses reach their full potential and maintain a high level of form (relative to them) with the likes of Paul Nicholls, they peak and deteriorate very quickly with O’Neill. He has had numerous high-class flat horses to work with and has managed to do very little with them. Of course, as TDK pointed out about 500 pages ago, they could have just been poor horses for jumping (in which case the problems at Jackdaws are hugely unfortunate), but given the money JP McManus and co. have invested, and the horses they have purchased, that is difficult to believe.
Horses like Kauto Star and Denman are few and far between, and training them would most probably be fairly easy for any experienced trainer, but when you consider the talent – or even potential – he’s had alongside horses like Rhinestone Cowboy (the most naturally gifted hurdler I’ve ever seen) and Iris’s Gift, Jonjo has failed to deliver on a massive scale. Take Black Jack Ketchum, he looked an absolute superstar in his novice season and cantered all over Blazing Bailey in the Relkeel toward the end of 2006. The King horse is no mug over three miles, borne out by his beating of Inglis Drever if nothing else, so to beat him in such a manner whilst conceding weight takes some doing. Does he look capable of that sort of performance now? No chance, and it can only be the O’Neill influence that’s done it. Very Optimistic, ironically owned by Gay Smith also, was another he destroyed beyond recognition. When I saw this horse cruise to three bumper victories I thought I’d seen something pretty special, but he came back after a layoff and achieved absolutely nothing.
The statistics you’ve provided mean very little without context. What types of races was he winning, which horses was he winning with, what time of the year were the winners coming and what was the competition like at the time?
As for Nicholls’s running of Azertyuiop, he should have been strung up. The horse wasn’t right even before his Champion Chase run (he was, to be honest, overweight and wouldn’t lift his head in the parade ring) and after the mistake he made at the water jump he should have been put back in his box, taken home and been allowed the rest of the year off. Money motivated his running against Well Chief, that and the lure of the Trainers’ Championship.
Nobody is saying that every horse can be turned into a superstar Charlie, we’re merely pointing out that whereas horses reach their full potential and maintain a high level of form (relative to them) with the likes of Paul Nicholls, they peak and deteriorate very quickly with O’Neill. He has had numerous high-class flat horses to work with and has managed to do very little with them. Of course, as TDK pointed out about 500 pages ago, they could have just been poor horses for jumping (in which case the problems at Jackdaws are hugely unfortunate), but given the money JP McManus and co. have invested, and the horses they have purchased, that is difficult to believe.
Horses like Kauto Star and Denman are few and far between, and training them would most probably be fairly easy for any experienced trainer, but when you consider the talent – or even potential – he’s had alongside horses like Rhinestone Cowboy (the most naturally gifted hurdler I’ve ever seen) and Iris’s Gift, Jonjo has failed to deliver on a massive scale. Take Black Jack Ketchum, he looked an absolute superstar in his novice season and cantered all over Blazing Bailey in the Relkeel toward the end of 2006. The King horse is no mug over three miles, borne out by his beating of Inglis Drever if nothing else, so to beat him in such a manner whilst conceding weight takes some doing. Does he look capable of that sort of performance now? No chance, and it can only be the O’Neill influence that’s done it. Very Optimistic, ironically owned by Gay Smith also, was another he destroyed beyond recognition. When I saw this horse cruise to three bumper victories I thought I’d seen something pretty special, but he came back after a layoff and achieved absolutely nothing.
The statistics you’ve provided mean very little without context. What types of races was he winning, which horses was he winning with, what time of the year were the winners coming and what was the competition like at the time?
As for Nicholls’s running of Azertyuiop, he should have been strung up. The horse wasn’t right even before his Champion Chase run (he was, to be honest, overweight and wouldn’t lift his head in the parade ring) and after the mistake he made at the water jump he should have been put back in his box, taken home and been allowed the rest of the year off. Money motivated his running against Well Chief, that and the lure of the Trainers’ Championship.
LGR, as i’ve tried to explain , i can’t do no more, we are drawing different conclusions from the info available and i’m not going to change my view that Jonjo is a capable trainer because you cannot provide me with any evidence except your opinion of what has happened
Great innit
Lets move on
OK Charlie – and I realise I may regret saying this – prove to us that Jonjo is a capable trainer, pointless statistics copied from the RP website aside.
OK Charlie – and I realise I may regret saying this – prove to us that Jonjo is a capable trainer, pointless statistics copied from the RP website aside.
Look at the horse results, it’s all there for you and everyone else to see, just like Nichols, Pipe, Hobbs, King etc, etc etc
This shows he is capable of training horses, you may think others are better, but that is subjective
LGR,
As stated earlier, I think O’Neill is a capable trainer, not in Nicholls league, but still a good trainer. Its all very well naming horses who have not progressed in his care, but I can name horses who have regressed in the top yards mentioned, Detroit City, Fair Along, Azertyuiop, Kicks for Free, Silver Birch (who changed yards and won the national), Crystal D’Ainay and now possibly My Way de Solzen.
Not every horse will progress they way they should, but lets get some balance into this argument. If Kauto Star was not on the scene O’Neill may have won the last two King Georges and last years Gold Cup and this thread would not exist.
JohnJ
the thread is stupid. It was initially about whether o niel was out of form.
he is not out of form. he is a very good trainer.
For those who think he is out of form, is Paul Nicholls?
officer de reserve – thrashed
predature – beaten
star de mahasion
elusive dream
etc etc etcfor jonjo – nor nor east ran up to form today. HE HAS NOT HAD MANY RUNNERS, but the number of stable stars are no different to recent years.
gdet off his back, and start seeing sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Agreed. Jonjo O’Neill is obviously a talented trainer.
As others have said; Afsoun may be without a trip, though personally I don’t think he’s a great battler.
I backed BJK with some hard earned on Tue and I felt that his connections were trying something different in the hope of finding his best form.
I don’t see why he shouldn’t make the running, his jumping was the main problem, along with the stables form. He was a brilliant novice, few win at Chelt & Aint as he did – though I concede you could crab the ratings/times.
Maybe novice chasing will rekindle the magic.
Zippy
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