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Would it be unfair to say that seemingly a higher proportion of JJ’s horses show promise and then (put this politely) …flattene out somewhat?
Isnt the key to a fine trainer the ability to continually improve or at least maintain the achievements of his charges?
Very obvious and good example is the marked improvement in Kauto’s jumping this year. Perhaps the great horse’s one weakish spot.
I am sure there will be quoted examples of King and Nichols charges who havent progressed, but its more the excpetion rather than the rule
Sean,
After recent efforts, I’d agree with you about BJK being useless apart from the fact that he absolutely cantered all over Blazing Bailey at Cheltenham a year ago.
Just what has gone wrong in the last 12 months?
Has anyone else heard stories about the horse having muscle wasting problems/being kicked by a stablemate and never being the same horse since?
As for Jonjo, I don’t have an opinion either way but he’s not helped by the amount of average/poor animals that JP gives him. I wish he’d let us know what has happened to Don’t Push It as well!
Letsget racings comments earlier about the stable stars being wachita, bjk, exotic, dont push it etc at this time last year are correct. but what has changed???????
exotic is still the number 1 chaser – you MUST ignore the Kempton run (much better going left handed and stronger gallop)
wachita – NEEDS 3Miles (interesting Ladbrokes didnt alter his price!!!)
BJK – overhyped, problem, tripless – one of those three reasons for falsafying position as a starJonjo has some very interesting horses to go to war with at this years cheltenham and aintree:
Butlers Cabin – national bound
Bearings Express – wait for better ground
De Soto – handicap at festical
Kahia Kaha -for cheltenham – novice
dont push it – ryannair?? not sure – but still is a good horse.
Crocodile Rockand im told there are some very nice bumper horses!!!!
just wait and see – but the stable are NOT out of form.
I am confident that the Jonjo runners will do much better at the Cheltenham Festival.
Exotic Dancer is my bet.
BJK is on my list of " hyped, but hopeless", I’m afraid. Very poor today, imo.
Sean Rua.
When did the connections opt to go for a handicap with ED at the festival?
Either O’Neill really isn’t in the same league as the likes of Nicholls, Pipe and King, and McManus’s faith is seriously misplaced, or he’s avoiding the realisation that there is a real problem at Jackdaws Castle.
Name Wins Runs % Places %
Jonjo O’Neill 82 478 17.1 178 37.2
D Pipe 66 397 16.6 149 37.5
A King 65 328 19.8 145 44.2
P F Nicholls 65 274 23.7 129 47.1
P J Hobbs 55 379 14.5 150 39.6
N A Twiston-Davies 54 272 19.9 117 43.0
Evan Williams 46 405 11.4 129 31.9
B G Powell 37 305 12.1 84 27.5
J Howard Johnson 36 183 19.7 66 36.Above suggests Jonjo is in same league, in fact, these season stats say he’s ahead by a decent margin in win/plc league than those you mention and from the above with 650k+ he currently lies 6th in prize money table
These two statistics seem to suggest there is probably some drivel being spouted on this thread and maybe, just maybe, there was some truth in todays statement and the horses that he ran in December just haven’t been " fast enough"
The yard obviously usually does a lot better than it’s doing right now, but I don’t fully buy into the "bug" theory because as LGR says, how can he still be running horses and how could he possibly know if all were o.k when he has so many to deal with? And why hasn’t he come out and said something?
You were going along fine until you said "Jonjo is giving the horses an easy time and not really putting everything into getting them to winning"
Mate, I wish I could spend time at the castle to find out what really was the problem and I wish I knew Jonjo to get a grasp of what he really thinks. I think if he had a independent little yard he’d be a great little trainer landing numerous coups for his owners and pleasing the public in the meantime, but all I can assure you of is he’s been underperforming for a few year now. Who knows, if JP stays loyal enough maybe in 5 year he’ll turn it all around and be top trainer, but 5 year seems a long way off at the moment.
oh come on now Jonjo has been training since 1990 and he’s never underperformed or he wouldn’t be where he is today.
He was at Skelton in Cumbria in what I suppose you could call a little independant yard. Far from little but small in comparison.
The place was immaculatly kept with not as much as a shovel out of place. A lot of good winners that came out of that yard were moderate and with many other trainers would never have won a race. That alone speaks volumes for the man’s ability.
Jonjo earned his place at JC the hard way and I’m sure you really don’t think he should be sent back to school.
oh come on now Jonjo has been training since 1990 and he’s never underperformed
No. Maybe he hasnt…but his horses have
BJK is on my list of " hyped, but hopeless", I’m afraid. Very poor today, imo.
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Hyped, but not hopeless, methinks.
This BJK situation has parallels with Tenby, imho, and the expections that were placed on his shoulders following his juvenile career. His (Tenby’s) race record says that he was a decent horse over 10 furlongs – not genuine Gr1 class but a Group-class horse, nevertheless – but his 3-Y-O career was done no favours by the hype that surrounded him,which came as a result of winning relatively uncompetitive juvenile races.
As for BJK, for my money, he is a decent stayer who has a chance of sneaking a place in the World Hurdle, but that is as good as he is. Perhaps if his novice form had been analysed objectively, by some, he wouldn’t now have this burden of expectation weighing him down.
Just my take on things.
.Either O’Neill really isn’t in the same league as the likes of Nicholls, Pipe and King, and McManus’s faith is seriously misplaced, or he’s avoiding the realisation that there is a real problem at Jackdaws Castle.
Name Wins Runs % Places %
Jonjo O’Neill 82 478 17.1 178 37.2
D Pipe 66 397 16.6 149 37.5
A King 65 328 19.8 145 44.2
P F Nicholls 65 274 23.7 129 47.1
P J Hobbs 55 379 14.5 150 39.6
N A Twiston-Davies 54 272 19.9 117 43.0
Evan Williams 46 405 11.4 129 31.9
B G Powell 37 305 12.1 84 27.5
J Howard Johnson 36 183 19.7 66 36.Above suggests Jonjo is in same league, in fact, these season stats say he’s ahead by a decent margin in win/plc league than those you mention and from the above with 650k+ he currently lies 6th in prize money table
These two statistics seem to suggest there is probably some drivel being spouted on this thread and maybe, just maybe, there was some truth in todays statement and the horses that he ran in December just haven’t been " fast enough"
The stats above prove very little. Given the talent at his disposal (not accounted for anywhere above), Jonjo O’Neill has been underperforming for years.
And as for BJK – whatever your view of whether he was overhyped as a novice, he has undoubtedly deteriorated and gone the wrong way this season.
The stats above prove very little. Given the talent at his disposal (not accounted for anywhere above), Jonjo O’Neill has been underperforming for years.
What talent is this TDK??
Only talented horse in Jonjo’s hands is Exotic Dancer, the rest are of average ability and below, that includes BJK, Wichita Linemam etc.etc
Jonjo gets plenty of talented horses, Charlie D – I can’t be bothered to list all of them, but just take a look on the RP site at some of the smart flat horses who have done next to nothing for him
The horses you quote as being average – that is after being trained by Jonjo.
The horses you quote as being average – that is after being trained by Jonjo.
Where is your evidence for this TDK? you seem to be spouting drivel like some other have on here
Black Jack Ketchum and Fire Dragon – do you think these two horses progressed and fulfilled their potential for Jonjo?
….and when he gets a Group horse off the flat, Mikado, Mountain, Two Miles West – what do we get?
… or perhaps an exciting Bumper horse – Theatrical Moment, Berings Express perhaps?
Sorry Charlie, if you think he gets average horses and does well with them, you are living on a different planet my friend.
…or maybe a good horse from a yard that has been struggling like Paul Webber? De Soto perhaps?
Oops.Black Jack Ketchum and Fire Dragon – do you think these two horses progressed and fulfilled their potential for Jonjo?
….and when he gets a Group horse off the flat, Mikado, Mountain, Two Miles West – what do we get?
… or perhaps an exciting Bumper horse – Theatrical Moment perhaps?
Sorry Charlie, if you think he gets average horses and does well with them, you are living on a different planet my friend.
TDK
BJK Novice form has been over-hyped and you know it, the same could be said of horses like Firedragon, Fair Along, Katchit, Detroit City etc, etc
where is it written that these flat cast offs should show a similar or higher level of ability in another code, also, where is it written that a horse that has shown decent bumper form should then be a good a hurdler or Chaser??
You seem to be stating opinion here TDK and showing very little evidence
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