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You can pick individual horses to substantiate any point, but its the overall pattern that counts for me. Not something anyone can prove with stats perhaps, but i am surely not alone in thinking that JJ has far more than his fair share of animals that demonstrated real ability at an early stage go quickly backwards?
Above examples being a case in point
Exactly, I always find that stating the facts are actually fantastic tools to substantiate a point, which have done so, I can also name horses that the individual trainers you have named above have sent backwards.
JohnJ.
I really don’t understand your point, so therefore based on your thinking we should be surprised at the heights scaled by Exotic Dancer?
JohnJ
Not surprised at all, particularly given that he won a few handicaps on the way and was beaten in a 3 horse race less than a week before hacking up in the Paddy Power
Really, what handicaps were they? I can see a host of novice chases and a graduation chase in his form, not any handicaps in his chase form.
JohnJ
Maybe I overstated it some but he did manage to win the Paddy Power – which was a handicap
Maybe I overstated it some but he did manage to win the Paddy Power – which was a handicap
Which I am totally aware of, Denman won a handicap also.
JohnJ.
I would magine that Crocodile Rock will run once more before Cheltenham, running poorly, and then win the Supreme Novices by 10 lengths @ 33/1.
Cue shot of JJ shaking his head, and declaring to Thommo "We’ve always thought he’s a nice horse…."
Geez here we go again!!! horse hasn’t run in ages was under a cloud for along time……….comes back 12st2lbs and run a decent race under the circumstances and Jonjo is useless????…………a 2/5 fav paper fav …..He ends up 8/11 and the winner is only 2/1. If that didn’t tell you he was badly in need of a run then you should not be punting, end of story.
Leave the training to the professionals and get back to doing your ironing…stop acting like a bunch of old sweetie wives
Geez here we go again!!! horse hasn’t run in ages was under a cloud for along time……….comes back 12st2lbs and run a decent race under the circumstances and Jonjo is useless????…………a 2/5 fav paper fav …..He ends up 8/11 and the winner is only 2/1. If that didn’t tell you he was badly in need of a run then you should not be punting, end of story.
Leave the training to the professionals and get back to doing your ironing…stop acting like a bunch of old sweetie wives
Think you have got a bit confused FOF.
What’s not working? The man has almost 90 winners to his credit this season……..FFS what does he have to do?
Crocodile ran a good race yesterday and for all we know the winner could be next years World Hurdle winner……they finished 7 lengths clear of the field and saying Jonjo has ruined yet another horse? That’s just BS.
The only way you can really judge any trainer is if you know him and work with him on a day to day basis. Picking out a few individual animals and saying this was ruined and that was ruined is for fools….at least you understand that Marb more than I can say for a few others on here.
I suppose if a horse like BJK was with David Pipe Alan King or PN he would be a totally different horse……..he would have unbelievable finishing speed and be 1/6 fav for the Gold Cup and be going for the Champion Hurdle as well……what a pile of crap people talk…….
Why didn’t crocodile run for 3 months? What was he doing in between times………was he working well at home…..did he miss a piece of work on Monday….did he need the run or was he simply beaten by a very good horse….unless you know the answer to these type of question you are judging any trainer or horse by pure speculation…Thankfully this is only a forum and has no bearing on what Jonjo’s owners think or he wouldn’t have a horse in his yard.
I
Fists, what do you reckon the plot is with his runner in the 3.20 at Huntingdon today?
Raise Your Game is a 7-y-o who has had only the three runs, all over hurdles.
He was second on his debut in December 2006 and then wasn’t seen until last November at Chepstow.
I was at Chepstow that day and I can say that "he definitely needed the run"!!
The stable’s neglected and ridden by Richie McGrath the horse was running on very well at the death and finished ahead of his better fancied stablemate , ridden by A.P.McCOY.
Disappointed on his only start since when 4th. @ 4/1 on heavy ground at Carlisle, again ridden by McGrath.
He is now qualified for handicaps but Jonjo has decided on a chase handicap rather than the more conventional hurdling option. A.P. takes the ride.
Any thoughts?
Colin
JohnJ. I’ve been reading this spat continue onto the Gold cup thread and was about to post there but thought that would just be ruining that thread. Basically, the fact that king has lost MWDS form just shows all trainers are humans and sometimes if half a ton of horse meat does’nt want to run there’s nothing a 100 kilogram man can do! {King incidently, without all the massive owners that people are saying you need in this game, is a much better trainer than Jonjo by the way)
Clive obviously thinks Jonjo is losing more horses potential than most of the other top trainers and I don’t see why you’d want to so rigourously dispute that, but whatever your opinion on jonjo as a trainer, or a man, or a former jockey, the point is, it’s not working. I’m sure he can get it back, but I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.
Marb,
I am under no illusions, I am well aware that King is a better trainer than O’Neill, that is not what is under dispute from my perspective. If you read the thread thoroughly instead of just glancing over it, you will see that many people were slating O’Neill saying he was a useless trainer. Now to those who have a more balanced opinion feel that they should argue THIS point rigorously.
JohnJ.
FOF,
I’d be willing to bet that of those 90 winners a good many were during the early part of the season when Nicholls, King etc only send out their dross and they would be predominantly races run at lesser courses. Can’t get on the RP at work so can;t look but I would be keen to see a monthly breakdown of winners.
O’Neill sends out a lot of winners at my local course Towcester, normally sending out expensive horses against total plodders..
For the stock he gets his report card imo would read could do better.
Monthly breakdown from May 2007………….winners/runners % age.
May 19/81.……………..23.5%
June 12/42.………..……28.6%
July 5/34.……….………14.7%
August 5/41.……………12.2%
September 8/51..……….15.7%
October 17/85.…….…..20.0%
November 15/110.….…13.6%
December 1/44.…..……..2.3%They suggest that there was a problem with his runners in December.
Colin
Trainer winning percentages for 2007: –
Nicholls 25%
King 19%
O’Neill 17%
Hobbs 15%Yet he is a rubbish trainer according to some folk. I would say he is not a bad trainer at all.
JohnJ
The only way you can really judge any trainer is if you know him and work with him on a day to day basis
Oh come on now…
So we cannot differentiate between Micheal Stoute and Alan Berry until we have "worked with them"?
Johnjo
Im not sure anyone is saying that hes "useless", but Marbs points were pretty spot on. Some might say that its down to perception and cannot be backed up with stats but then again, is that so very wrong? But i dont think we disagree that much anyway
FOF,
I’d be willing to bet that of those 90 winners a good many were during the early part of the season when Nicholls, King etc only send out their dross and they would be predominantly races run at lesser courses. Can’t get on the RP at work so can;t look but I would be keen to see a monthly breakdown of winners.
O’Neill sends out a lot of winners at my local course Towcester, normally sending out expensive horses against total plodders..
For the stock he gets his report card imo would read could do better.
Ok so what’s your point? What has Jonjo’s strike rate got to do with what any other trainer decides to do with his.
If the horses are ready you run them and get as much prize money as possible for the owners and the yard. Jonjo runs a business and runs it well………profit and loss is what counts.
Or maybe you think he should only enter horses when PN does just to prove PN has better resources and make you happy.
"Keep yourself in the best company and your horses in the worst". The oldest saying in racing.
Jonjo will have his fair share of big winners before the end of the season and will have a few surprises up his sleeve….I just wish people would stop comparing trainers.
I said this before but I will repeat in case you missed it.
Red Rum..trained by Ginger McCain…..Ginger was crap couldn’t train a pig to be dirty.
Rubstic……..John Leadbetter……who made who?
Point is you can only piddle with the willie you got……….Jonjo makes a damn good job of that year in year out………….and for those who thought the likes of Rhinestone Cowboy, BJK and co were world beaters then who’s fault is that?…….Name me one horse that Jonjo ruined as he been accused of and give me some proof………the horses daily history, what the man done wrong etc…………He doesn’t have Kauto Star but he has done brilliant well with Exotic Dancer……..Reverse the situation and what? You would back ED to beat Kauto?…….you don’t back trainers you back horses so why bother comparing them.
I am not trying to compare PN and Jonjo that is a totally stupid thing to do………You only have 2 types of trainers….good ones and bad ones……..they are both good and that’s as much as I want to say on the subject.
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