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There might not seem that much difference in speed of a 1 mile race and mile and a quarter. But there is between a strongly run mile and slowly run mile and a quarter. Where as at a mile Sir Henry is happy to see his charge go to the front and go at his own pace; doubt if he’d be over the moon at the longer distance if Frankel starts to race freely. Might not get home. All considerations when upping a horse in trip.
Ginger I’m trying hard to understand this discussion, but one thing I’m finding hard to reconcile is – 1) Frankel is the greatest horse of all time, and 2) not 100% sure if he can step up from 1600 to 2000.
Something is just not right in those two comments.
I reckon I know which one is slightly going outside the bounds of reality, but so I’m not made to appear too biased, I’m wondering if you can help me decipher which one it is?
There might not seem that much difference in speed of a 1 mile race and mile and a quarter. But there is between a strongly run mile and slowly run mile and a quarter. Where as at a mile Sir Henry is happy to see his charge go to the front and go at his own pace; doubt if he’d be over the moon at the longer distance if Frankel starts to race freely. Might not get home. All considerations when upping a horse in trip.
Ginger I’m trying hard to understand this discussion, but one thing I’m finding hard to reconcile is – 1) Frankel is the greatest horse of all time, and 2) not 100% sure if he can step up from 1600 to 2000.
Something is just not right in those two comments.
I reckon I know which one is slightly going outside the bounds of reality, but so I’m not made to appear too biased, I’m wondering if you can help me decipher which one it is?
Your obvious agenda is getting tiresome. Frankly, no one cares anymore.
There might not seem that much difference in speed of a 1 mile race and mile and a quarter. But there is between a strongly run mile and slowly run mile and a quarter. Where as at a mile Sir Henry is happy to see his charge go to the front and go at his own pace; doubt if he’d be over the moon at the longer distance if Frankel starts to race freely. Might not get home. All considerations when upping a horse in trip.
Ginger I’m trying hard to understand this discussion, but one thing I’m finding hard to reconcile is – 1) Frankel is the greatest horse of all time, and 2) not 100% sure if he can step up from 1600 to 2000.
Something is just not right in those two comments.
I reckon I know which one is slightly going outside the bounds of reality, but so I’m not made to appear too biased, I’m wondering if you can help me decipher which one it is?
One last try.
Greatest of all time because he’s capable of the best form of all time.
It’s interesting you disqualifyFrankel
, as it disqualifies
Black Caviar
too. Under your rules she has to win the Melbourne Cup.
Bayardo
won from 5f to 2m4f.
Value Is EverythingI know i’m in the minority here, but i think Frankel ought to be stepping back in trip rather than up. I think he’d win the Nunthorpe by a street.
He may well be good enough to win at Group 1 level at anything between 5 & 10f, but i doubt the 10f will see him run to his best form.
You could be forgiven for thinking his optimum trip is 6/7 furlongs couldn’t you?
I am genuinely intrigued to see whether he actually can get further against top class horses. It’s easy to imagine the sheer gulf in class between himself and his peers being enough on its own to see him outrun his opponents over further but does a longer trip really suit him? It’s something we all want to find out.
This animal is something out of the ordinary. That much is for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he were capable of winning against the best opposition between 6 and 12 furlongs.
I know i’m in the minority here, but i think Frankel ought to be stepping back in trip rather than up. I think he’d win the Nunthorpe by a street.
He may well be good enough to win at Group 1 level at anything between 5 & 10f, but i doubt the 10f will see him run to his best form.
You could be forgiven for thinking his optimum trip is 6/7 furlongs couldn’t you?
I am genuinely intrigued to see whether he actually can get further against top class horses. It’s easy to imagine the sheer gulf in class between himself and his peers being enough on its own to see him outrun his opponents over further but does a longer trip really suit him? It’s something we all want to find out.
This animal is something out of the ordinary. That much is for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he were capable of winning against the best opposition between 6 and 12 furlongs.
I quite agree apart from i’d go from 5f to 10f as i previously said. Can you imagine Queally in the Nunthorpe, never mind trying to settle or any of that guff, just point and run full pelt. What a sight that would be, and after seeing the Guinea’s its impossible to imagine anything doing Frankel for toe!
If i had to guess Frankels optimum trip, i would plump for 6 or 7f too. Black Caviar stays 7f…………..
I know i’m in the minority here, but i think Frankel ought to be stepping back in trip rather than up. I think he’d win the Nunthorpe by a street.
He may well be good enough to win at Group 1 level at anything between 5 & 10f, but i doubt the 10f will see him run to his best form.
You could be forgiven for thinking his optimum trip is 6/7 furlongs couldn’t you?
I am genuinely intrigued to see whether he actually can get further against top class horses. It’s easy to imagine the sheer gulf in class between himself and his peers being enough on its own to see him outrun his opponents over further but does a longer trip really suit him? It’s something we all want to find out.
This animal is something out of the ordinary. That much is for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he were capable of winning against the best opposition between 6 and 12 furlongs.
I quite agree apart from i’d go from 5f to 10f as i previously said. Can you imagine Queally in the Nunthorpe, never mind trying to settle or any of that guff, just point and run full pelt. What a sight that would be, and after seeing the Guinea’s its impossible to imagine anything doing Frankel for toe!
If i had to guess Frankels optimum trip, i would plump for 6 or 7f too. Black Caviar stays 7f…………..
I saw an interview with Ray Cochrane somewhere recently where he reckoned the mare wouldn’t get close to Frankel. He used the word "slaughter" to describe how easily he thinks Frankel would beat her.
I was quite surprised at his comments. He’s generally a quietly spoken fellow not given to sensationalism. And a very shrewd judge of a race horse to boot.
It’s an intriguing prospect.
Some great posts on here let down only by our antipodean friend. Ginge I especially liked yours but would contend with one point. That Kind did not stay beyond 7f. She was actually never tried at that trip despite her breeding. The reason – she was nuts. Read some of the racing post comments. This was said after her maiden win over 7f:
KIND had the form to win this and made no mistake, although she was distinctly buzzy in the preliminaries, unshipping her rider twice at the start and proving reluctant to be loaded, and she was very free through the early stages, racing in a clear lead. Considering the way she raced, it would not have been that surprising if she folded in the straight, but she kept up the gallop and was never in the slightest danger of being caught. A strong, well-built filly, she could go on from this if her temperament does not become a problem, but this is about as far as she is likely to stay.
Sound familiar? It was in the genes guys.
After her next win the racing post wrote:
A filly held in high regard by some fair judges last season, Kind has so far failed to reach the heights that might have been expected and, although winning here, did not do a great deal to boost her reputation. Better behaved than she was when winning here over 7f 11 days earlier, she travelled powerfully on the bridle until pushed along inside the final quarter-mile when she hardly quickened as seemed likely. On the plus side, her trainer is adamant that she is not a natural sprinter and would be happier running over an extra furlong if only she would settle.
Roger Charlton was interviewed recently and said that he always felt this filly might have been most effective over 7f/1m but he could never get her to settle. Worth bearing in mind when people say that Henry should have taught Frankel to settle earlier.
Despite all this she ran up a sequence of wins at listed level over 6f but one can’t help wondering what she might have been capable of over further if she had been more tractable.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Joni,
For sure Kind was not raced at a mile, but that’s because she didn’t relax enough to do so. Fact is her temperament meant she was best at sprint distances. Of course (as Roger Charlton says) had she settled she would’ve got further (or done better), but the fact is she didn’t. Therefore (when she improved dropped to sprints) I think it’s reasonable to say she didn’t stay further than 7f.However, she was bred to get further. Therefore, if her progeny don’t exhibit her trait, then they are (in all probability) going to stay further (possibly considerably further) than she herself did.
Question for Racing Quiz: At which racecourse and distance did
Maybe
‘s dam just beat
Frankel
‘s dam in a battle for minor honours?
Value Is EverythingYou could be forgiven for thinking his optimum trip is 6/7 furlongs couldn’t you?
I am genuinely intrigued to see whether he actually can get further against top class horses. It’s easy to imagine the sheer gulf in class between himself and his peers being enough on its own to see him outrun his opponents over further but does a longer trip really suit him? It’s something we all want to find out.
This animal is something out of the ordinary. That much is for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he were capable of winning against the best opposition between 6 and 12 furlongs.
I quite agree apart from i’d go from 5f to 10f as i previously said. Can you imagine Queally in the Nunthorpe, never mind trying to settle or any of that guff, just point and run full pelt. What a sight that would be, and after seeing the Guinea’s its impossible to imagine anything doing Frankel for toe!
If i had to guess Frankels optimum trip, i would plump for 6 or 7f too. Black Caviar stays 7f…………..
I saw an interview with Ray Cochrane somewhere recently where he reckoned the mare wouldn’t get close to Frankel. He used the word "slaughter" to describe how easily he thinks Frankel would beat her.
I was quite surprised at his comments. He’s generally a quietly spoken fellow not given to sensationalism. And a very shrewd judge of a race horse to boot.
It’s an intriguing prospect.
Woo hoo
Firstly – I’m not going to reply to the boys club comments on last page. This is the internet we’re all at home here.
I hope..Now, I will bet you blokes a slab and a 6-pack of 2008 Del Diablo Loco Shiraz, purchased on ebay and delivered to address of choice, that Frankel and Black Caviar will never even meet in a race in 2012!!!
Who wants that bet?
That’s right, nobody.
Because they will never meet. The Cav might be travelling abroad as part of an owner’s junket, but she’s not being set for an uphill friggen mile, and I’m not holding my breath for Frankel to do anything outside his comfort zone!
So I’m confident, and asking, who’s wants that bet!!!
zzzzzzzzz………cricket noises……
The Cav might be travelling abroad as part of an owner’s junket, but she’s not being set for an uphill friggen mile,
AIC,
Although Goodwood is "undulating", those are more like "bumps", being very much a "downhill" course. Home straight is one of the fastest in the country. Horses who are not entirely certain to get a mile often run in the Sussex as it gives them the best chance of doing so. It’s our sharpest Group 1 mile.Value Is EverythingQuestion for Racing Quiz: At which racecourse and distance did
Maybe
‘s dam just beat
Frankel
‘s dam in a battle for minor honours?
Well it wasn’t Nottingham Ginge as ‘Kind’ beat ‘Sumora’ comfortably that day and I had a hareem of Women who’d snaffled the 5/1 on all 5 limbs of my Adonis like body!
Now, I will bet you blokes a slab and a 6-pack of 2008 Del Diablo Loco Shiraz, purchased on ebay and delivered to address of choice, that Frankel and Black Caviar will never even meet in a race in 2012!!!
Who wants that bet?
That’s right, nobody.
AIC its 1/3 it doesn’t happen so your bets safe but just out of interest ‘should’
Frankel
carrying 9-0 meet
Black caviar
carrying 8-11 say over 7f at York on a warm Sunny day in August on ‘Good’ ground,maybe just on the fast side of good and both were in tip top shape,say there was a field of 10 went to post who would go off favourite and who in your opinion would win?
Being the King of Foresight I pride myself on robbing the Rich (Betfair Layers) to feed the Poor and needy!(Me). Hindsight shows I should have backed ‘Frankel’ for the 2011 Guineas at 10/1 but I stood firm because I thought he was a headcase who would self destruct,however when it was revealed that he had sustained an injury prior to the Lockinge the layers went mad and put up silly prices right up to 85’s,I watched the market closely for several days and those prepared to take a chance were rewarded at unbelievable prices.I saw a £25 wager at 85’s, £75 at 70’s, £135 at 65’s, £330 at 60’s, £1200 at 50’s all the way down to the 2/7 SP on the day! I take my hat off to those who got on,unfortunately I wasn’t one of them!
Some great posts on here let down only by our antipodean friend. Ginge I especially liked yours but would contend with one point. That Kind did not stay beyond 7f. She was actually never tried at that trip despite her breeding. The reason – she was nuts. Read some of the racing post comments. This was said after her maiden win over 7f:
KIND had the form to win this and made no mistake, although she was distinctly buzzy in the preliminaries, unshipping her rider twice at the start and proving reluctant to be loaded, and she was very free through the early stages, racing in a clear lead. Considering the way she raced, it would not have been that surprising if she folded in the straight, but she kept up the gallop and was never in the slightest danger of being caught. A strong, well-built filly, she could go on from this if her temperament does not become a problem, but this is about as far as she is likely to stay.
Sound familiar? It was in the genes guys.
After her next win the racing post wrote:
A filly held in high regard by some fair judges last season, Kind has so far failed to reach the heights that might have been expected and, although winning here, did not do a great deal to boost her reputation. Better behaved than she was when winning here over 7f 11 days earlier, she travelled powerfully on the bridle until pushed along inside the final quarter-mile when she hardly quickened as seemed likely. On the plus side, her trainer is adamant that she is not a natural sprinter and would be happier running over an extra furlong if only she would settle.
Roger Charlton was interviewed recently and said that he always felt this filly might have been most effective over 7f/1m but he could never get her to settle. Worth bearing in mind when people say that Henry should have taught Frankel to settle earlier.
Despite all this she ran up a sequence of wins at listed level over 6f but one can’t help wondering what she might have been capable of over further if she had been more tractable.
Let down bt Antipodean friend hey Jonibake? Whilst i totally dont agree with AIC’s cream puff comment,Frankels last furlong in 12.9 something was slow! Why because Henry Cecil ballsed up the tactics mate!
Now, I will bet you blokes a slab and a 6-pack of 2008 Del Diablo Loco Shiraz, purchased on ebay and delivered to address of choice, that Frankel and Black Caviar will never even meet in a race in 2012!!!
Who wants that bet?
That’s right, nobody.
AIC its 1/3 it doesn’t happen so your bets safe but just out of interest ‘should’
Frankel
carrying 9-0 meet
Black caviar
carrying 8-11 say over 7f at York on a warm Sunny day in August on ‘Good’ ground,maybe just on the fast side of good and both were in tip top shape,say there was a field of 10 went to post who would go off favourite and who in your opinion would win?
For my money Frankel would be an odds on favourite and the mare, game though she is, wouldn’t get within five lengths of him.
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