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I would like to see the actual weight of the horse, on the day it is racing, published. Then at least we would know if the horse is fit. Presumably most horses unfit and not trying will be overweight.<br>John:)
As a jockey I have been asked to give my views, so here goes :
Correct Distances : <br> It is very very hard to know a horses correct dictance ever after many races. There are other factors which often obscure direct comparisons with previous form over a particular distance.<br> Firstly is the ground, just because a horse runs well on 2 miles on soft ground doesn’t mean he will run well over 2 miles on firm ground. He is likely to need further on the faster ground.<br> Secondly is type of racecourse, 3 miles round Aintree is an easier test than 3 miles round Cheltenham.<br> Thirdly is the pace involved in the race. You sometimes find that in a 2 mile race they may crawl for the first 12 furlongs and the just sprint for the final 4. Other times you will find that races are run from end to end and you will test a horses stamina much more.<br> Some horses are equally effective over differing distances as well.
Therefore you really need to look in to every factor before deciding what a horses optimum trip is. It is completely impossible to only say horses can only run over one distance.
<br>Weighing horses :<br> Although it sounds a good idea to weigh horses there are a number of different things that can effect a horses weight, not just his level of fitness. I have always thought the best way to tell a fit horse is to look at his muscle mass and the condition of his coat.
Answer – No.
I’ll can’t tar the whole sport with that label. David Howards’s comments are the most pertinent. There is a lot about the preperation of horse that the average punter isnt interested in, yet they cry foul when they lose their money.
We put the sport under the microscope more than it has ever been in its history yet we can only throw up the occasional area of concern. I dont condone this, however it needs to be kept in perspective.
Panorama made a lot of the betting patterns on Man Mood’s infamous race at Warwick, yet nobody has pointed out Man Mood has a serious breathing problem that hindered his later career.
There are lots these examples – the "so-called" non triers that never get sighted in races again after being given "an easy".
The professional losers, who like nothing more than throwing away winning opportunties.
the big babies… immature embryonic chasers that are given "educational races" whilst they mature. etc.
If we are really keen to preserve the sport’s integrity then these grey areas should be addressed, particularly to new fans of the sport.
answer yes<br>most sports are bent in some way or other, but racing is more bent than others because the vast amounts of money involved, put punters like me try and think we can beat them at there own game, some do succeed but most of us do not , count me in on the do nots:) <br>cheers pogues
ps i wish i could bet in wrestling
Apracing’s question is indeed the crucial point in discussing if racing is bent. If you do believe its bent then you are a mug punter if you continue to bet blind.
My own opinion is that racing is bent and from first hand experience I know it is. Now, I try to only bet when I have very good grounds for thinking I’m betting a trier and that I’m reasonably certain the opposition are fully exposed and their best form can be assessed.
I have seen too many cases over the last year of bent races and been able to profit from my information. The worst case by far took place at Wolverhampton early this year when a short priced favourite in a poor claiming race was matched on BF for £110k in the win market and £15k in the place market. It finished 4th after a slow start and a bit of deliberate trouble in running. I knew of the plan for this horse two weeks before the race and laid it to my maximum at the time of £5k. This horse had a flat-out gallop over about 2 miles on the morning of the race. It was owned by a bookmaker.
Another experience I saw first had was when one of the biggest jockeys in the country, paid a rare visit to a gaff track up north. He had three bets that day, two on his own mounts and another on a 12/1 chance in a race where he was riding the favourite! The 12/1 chance finished second and the favourite found trouble in running and finished unplaced.
The game is bent at all levels.
Going back to the initial post of this thread about horses being tried over theie corret distance. I can tell you for certain that a new handicap system wil be introduced with race distance bands. The current proposal being considered is to have bands like 5f-6f, 7f-8f, 9f-11f etc.
Actually this takes me back some 30 yrs to stratford races one Saturday.
Me being a fanatic racing enthusiast (my introduction coming via me at 11 yrs of age pre betting shop days being the lookout for an illegal bookmaker you wrote your bet on a woodbine packet and he then clocked the bets) so one could term me as mature student to this forum (I was paid by me having a bet to the tune of two shillings and sixpence i.e, 3x6d doubles and a 6d ew treble) for 3 hrs work no cash only if you won but no monies had to have a bet on the said day, and have been involved in racing ever since 40 plus years.
So you can see by the time in the sport I have seen and heard of plenty of various schemes i’ll call them.
Anyhow going back to Stratford races, a horse won the premier chase of the day at 33-1 and I strolled towards the vets area and got in conversation with the vet, he was doing a dope test (urine sample) on this winner I then asked the vet " do you ever get any tips on these horses?" he replied "if I listen to them I would soon be in the workhouse if I did, see this thing it cant jump a clear round at home according to the trainer" he then said the only time I know who will be trying is down at the gate if I am called there (this was pre mobile phone days only walkie talkies on course then with limited coverage i.e.distance) so no chance of him getting a bet on if he could,but he said I would know who was trying and who was not going to be trying so would no the first three home.
And another thing the ordinary punter do not know (you are all betting blind) is the instructions given to a jockey how to ride the horse whether to try or give it a airing, I have been in the ring with the likes of CARSON EDDERY and various other TOP jocks and the instructions, will quote instructions being "go easy he wont win its his first run back after being injured just give him an airing" now the average betting man dont know that so he bets blind,not knowing the horse as been injured or the instructions that the jockey is given.
Have also been there when the instructions have been" she’s ready give a go she’s at her peak fitness C/D winner she runs 4th of 4, odds on with big bucks placed on her and Eddery getting off saying "the going was against her " it was the going she loved and he was given a few dirty looks I can assure you.
So in summary its a brilliant sport but its also very very chancy and no such thing as a certainty I can speak from my expeirences.<br>REGARDS MERLIN
very interesting,the more i hear the more suprised i get 95% ian lower lower more stories please
<br>i basically agree with a what rook says.
it would be unwise to think racing is totally straight or indeed any sport.
however despite panorama sensational stories and kenyon confronts what. i dont think its that bent
however when asking is racings bent i think we should establish the term "bent" meaning.
aa are we referring to corruption , doping and outright fixing of racing.
bb or are we referring to getting good handicap marks
cc giving a horse an easy with a view to its racing future
whilst aa i would definitly class as bent i wouldnt use the term bent to cover bb and cc
Another bent race. Elusive City’s first race at Lingfield was another race that was definately bent. Most of the jockey’s in the weighing room that day were on the winner.
I’ve sat back and watched this debate develop.
Maybe its my imagination, however every time I see a debate about this on the TV (particularly on Attheraces), I can’t help but think I listening to a debate of people with very little knowledge of horses and a lot of knowledge – maybe too much about betting.
Its silly to debate how clean the sport is – its never going to be 100% clean, because humans are involved and we are fallable… we don’t trust any technology completely which involves human imput because we makes error accidently or deliberately … how can we expect more of a sport.
What I find most disapointing is how little support there has been to protect the integrity of the game.
I’ve singled out ATR because their phone-in program, whilst interesting and informative, does in my view need to have some balance on it. We had a fall-out week on Panorama yet amongst thesewhere some outrageous comments, the worst was someone suggesting that Just Nick’s jopckey had pulled the horse … He did because the horse had broken a limb.
I dont mind forums openly discussing topics – thats exactly what they’re for, however if you want to win back the racegoer on the wain you, have to have balance…
I wonder how many people who bet actually understand the psyche of a horse never mind its conformation.
Clearly some dont because despite whinging about a horse refusing to race they backed it in to favourism next time out .. then whinged again.
I’ve heard punters complaining about not knowing when horses wear check pieces..
why not ship-skin nosebands? – they can be worn as a correctional aid. They are going to get their wish, however unless you know why they are being put on, what use is it?
The media and the BHB/Jockey should be focusing on this aspect of racing… (it is the greyest) rather than stating repeatedly how straight the game is.
Terrific post Alsoran –  in terms of perception, you’ve picked an inappropriate monicker, methinks.
Some have attacked my posting as being arrogant – it is not it is based on fact witnessed by my own eyes and in reference to betting patterns both on and of course
The question is whether racing is bent not to the varying degrees of comparisons with other jurisdictions or other sports.
I may add as a racing fanatic it is with some major dissapointment that my post is as negative as it on first reading appears
The difficulty is that we have a sport that is poorly funded and conections are obliged to "top up incomes" from betting revenues _FACT
Further we have in the majority of races a supposedly fair system called handicaps gving each animal a fair crack of the whip. But this is the precisely the area which is rife with abuse
As someone one said you cannot be a little pregnant – hence in response to the question is racing is bent my honest belief is yes
Some have attacked my posting as being arrogant – it is not it is based on fact witnessed by my own eyes and in reference to betting patterns both on and of course
The question is whether racing is bent not to the varying degrees of comparisons with other jurisdictions or other sports it is just whether it is or not.
I may add as a racing fanatic it is with some major dissapointment that my post is as negative as it on first reading appears
The difficulty is that we have a sport that is poorly funded and conections are obliged to "top up incomes" from betting revenues _FACT
Further we have in the majority of races a supposedly fair system called handicaps gving each animal a fair crack of the whip. But this is the precisely the area which is rife with abuse
As someone one said you cannot be a little pregnant – hence in response to the question is racing is bent my honest belief is yes
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