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No objection to any of it Gingertipster. As I said earlier , women already constitute nearly 50% of staff so there doesn’t seem to be a problem there. Exploring the situation is good. I’m only talking about the staff side of things while you have mentioned getting people out of the betting shops and onto the course. As far as my side of it goes , I don’t think racing has much wriggle room except perhaps in the area of wages and so it will find it difficult to get staff . Hoping for *Good* staff in any great number is pointless.
It’s nice to see some measure replies in this thread from people who have some knowledge and a willingness to educate themselves.
What hasn’t been handy is labelling people whom you know nothing about and contributing ZERO actual dialogue regarding the subject matter.
Gingertipster asked what made me think I knew what I was talking about?
I about six years old when the first Pakistani people moved into the town and over the next few years I observed the attitude and name calling towards these people as they increased their numbers. I was part of that name calling very briefly because my Father took a leather belt to my arse and my mother grounded me for three months, so that I got the message that it wasn’t going to be accepted.
Watching Roots on TV in the late 70’s gave me the first real education on the history of black slaves and then taught me about the casual and widespread derogatory treatment of black people in America, long after slavery was abolished. Muhammad Ali came home from the Rome Olympics in 1960 with a Gold Medal for Boxing. He went into a a bar with some friends and the group were quickly told by the bartender “I ain’t servin’ the coloured guy” Ali went out of the bar and walked to the riverside, throwing his Gold Medal into the river, declaring “This medal means nothing to me when I can’t buy a drink in my own country”
Incidents like that brought to my attention the notion that people can judge and condemn people simply based on the colour of their skin. Almost every documentary regarding the history of the ill treatment of people for no valid reason is one that I will watch in an attempt to increase my knowledge and better understand the realities of what drives racist attitudes. I recently saw one where Louis Theroux interviewed some grandiosely entitled old fart who was Grand Master Flash Mellie Mel and the Furious Five of some KKK chapter, who claimed he was not racist but that he simply did not consider black people to be human beings. Another KKK man seemed to be a middle-aged man in the throes of a mid-life crisis and you got the feeling that because he had a fancy title within the KKK, it gave him some identity as a successful man of some importance, rather than the average Joe Dick that he actually was.
I became friends with the sons of the Pakistani families who came to the town in the early days, one of the lads was my snooker partner for several years. We shared many a pint in the local clubs and would share banter on whether they should be drinking alcohol as Muslims. Zaheed would tell the boys that his Dad was old-fashioned and preferred if he and his brother kept a low profile, to which the barman piped up “Here Zaheed, you were keeping such a low profile last Friday that you were nearly crawling under the fruit machine” Zaheed famously had a testicle size comparison contest in the Lobby one night and a throng of about 12 people had gathered to see the appointed umpire call the result. In the end local boy Todo Bremner got the verdict although a brief stewards enquiry was called for as one of Zaheed’s backers had reckoned Todo had managed to squeeze both nuts out of the gusset of his drawers.
Great memories and Zaheed would later follow tradition and marry a girl from England whom he had never met in an arranged marriage and he moved to England himself eventually. His brother took a different route and married a local lass of his choosing, he had kids, divorced and then married another local girl, having further children with her.
We live in changing times, some Muslim people are more traditional in their attitudes, while others are embracing the more decadent Western lifestyle with it’s freedom of choice. There is no such thing as a “Typical” Muslim but some people in the UK will hate them all with the same passion.
My daughter was paired at School with a mixed race girl whose mother was English and her Father was from Mauritius. They were a Muslim family and their daughter was shy and lacked confidence. The girl had told her Father that she was much more happy working alongside my Daughter and asked the Head Teacher if it was possible that his daughter and my daughter could work together whenever possible and the decision was ultimately my daughters to make and she accepted the proposal. That Christmas the young girl sent my daughter a Christmas cards which contained the words “You have been like a mother to me this year” It’s a gesture I am immensely proud to recall. My wife was making a good friendship with the Mother but out of the blue the Father lost the plot and held the family at knifepoint one night. The father was jailed and the mother moved back to England to start a new life living with a woman as a Lesbian couple. The world can fall in on people sometimes but the daughter eventually got qualified and works in Nursing now.
I’ve had Muslim next door neighbours, Russian/Nigerian next door neighbours, hell, even English next door neighbours. My neighbours at the moment are Polish, Russian, Dutch, Indian/Scottish and I get along really well with them all, the worst neighbours in the street are all locals. My experience with non Scots is positive to a great extent but I have had drunken boorish Muslims next door on one occasion. You cannot label them all based on one bad example though.
Attempts to positively discriminate for one group of people can often backfire. The best candidate for any job is the one with a genuine passion for the work and the application within themselves to learn and improve whilst integrating with the team. In any job there will always be cliques and some people will be outwith the clique, leading to feelings of alienation. That is not going to be based on skin colour and/or race all the time, there may be many other reasons. Jealousy is always poison in any workplace and that could be a valid reason for someone not feeling welcome in a new workplace.
One certainty in not securing a job is if you do not apply. If you do apply and don’t come across as someone genuinely interested or as someone with negative feelings regarding the post, again you will be unlikely to get the job.
If well qualified and genuinely interest parties are interviewing well and repeatedly not getting the positions because someone who was not as well qualified and didn’t interview as impressively, but happened to be white got the job, then we can genuinely say that a problem exists. Any set of figures needs to be put into context by examining the details more deeply.
The attitude here from many seems to be that it’s “Guilty until proven innocent” when the onus must be on those shouting the odds to prove that there is a problem that needs a group to “Look into” That’s a recurring theme in Britain where the cart goes before the horse and money is poured down the drain in an effort to prove that “Black is White” when, if they had looked properly to begin with, the question was actually if “Grey was Beige”
I know my experience on this topic and I have researched plenty about it and taken anecdotal evidence from all parties. I know where I stand here regarding my interaction with people from varied countries and of different religions and I know how homosexual friends and acquaintances regard me when we converse with one another. If people wan’t to call me a “Bad Racist” they are only showing their own shallowness and ignorance. People like that are a billion a penny on the internet. Largely hypocrites who bemoan me coming back at THEM, when it was them that started by attacking me. People who tell you to dry your eyes and then go bubbling and peeping because you spelled their name incorrectly. Whose boo hooing now?
Hypocrites!End of transmission.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
The attitude here from many seems to be that it’s “Guilty until proven innocent” when the onus must be on those shouting the odds to prove that there is a problem that needs a group to “Look into” That’s a recurring theme in Britain where the cart goes before the horse and money is poured down the drain in an effort to prove that “Black is White” when, if they had looked properly to begin with, the question was actually if “Grey was Beige”
You’re seeing things that aren’t there, Steve.
Who’s shouting the odds? It is not “Guilty until proven innocent”; it is not proclaiming that there is definately a problem. It is seeing for a fact there is very little racial diversity within racing and therefore “looking in to it” just in case there is a problem… And what can (if anything) be done to encourage a more diverse industry. It is not up to anyone to “prove there is a problem” before they even “look in to it”; that would be just silly.
Look a little closer and you’d see that most (if not all) on here believe there is no institutionalised racism within Racing. Although like in all walks of life, sadly there will be some racism. It is my personal belief that some non-whites are put off by not feeling welcome – a perceived unwelcomeness – probably not a real one… Which I suspect this study will confirm, although if it does not confirm it am willing to change my mind if the evidence is strong.
May be if the conclusion is (as we expect) that there is no institutionalised racism, but some people are being put off by a perceived unwelcomeness… Then I hope something can be done to change those feelings (without so called positive discrimination) and that we see more ethnic minorities on racecourses.
Some time ago I asked a white friend of mine who was a frequent bettor on the horses in bookmakers, why he did not go racing? His answer was “because it’s for snobs”; and I think this may also be another reason many non-whites don’t go racing. Feeling they would not fit in. Personally, I’ve never felt it is for snobs. I’ve talked to all supposed classes, from underwriters to bankers to grocers to postmen to window cleaners; we don’t judge each other, we are racing pals who just want to talk racing. But some still do see it as a rich man’s past time and therefore don’t go racing.
Some think they have to dress up in a suit to go racing so are put off by that, may be statistically more non-whites are put off by that.
Those within racing are often brought up in and around racing stables, and so are more likely to be taken on by the trainer. Stables are found in the countryside and most ethnic minorities are found in cities.
However, if there was any industry with so little racial diversity then I (and surprised you wouldn’t) hope they “look in to it” more closely (more closely than we can do on this forum). In order to see if there is a problem. Indeed any boss would not be doing his/her job properly if they did not “look in to it”.
Value Is EverythingGingertipster asked what made me think I knew what I was talking about?
Where did I ask that question, Steve?
Been over the entire thread and can’t seem to see it anywhere. Looks more like something you’d say rather than me, but may be I mistakingly said it somewhere. If you point it out to me I can delete if necessary.That long post is all very interesting, but I think what you are referring to is this question:
I’d like to know why you think you know better than these people who’ve been specifically set up to look in to diversity in horse racing?What experience have you of working in the horse racing industry and how much have you looked in to Racing’s specific problems? How many non-whites that are already interested in racing have you interviewed about why they do not apply for jobs within racing and/or why they are interested in but do not go racing? All those on the list have experience of Racing, some are from ethnic minoriities and at least some of them will have presumably – at the end of their study – hopefully gained a large amount of knowledge to judge the subject (and judge the subject better than anyone can on an internet forum).
Value Is EverythingIf people wan’t to call me a “Bad Racist” they are only showing their own shallowness and ignorance. People like that are a billion a penny on the internet. Largely hypocrites who bemoan me coming back at THEM, when it was them that started by attacking me. People who tell you to dry your eyes and then go bubbling and peeping because you spelled their name incorrectly. Whose boo hooing now?
Hypocrites!“Shallowness and ignorance”, hmmm.
Steve, it was not me who called you a “Bad Racist”, but you must surely realise that people can only make comments about a post/posts or person by what is written in that post or on the forum – what they then know about you. You’d yet to tell us your life history and so if posting something that looks racist or uncaring you can not blame them for judging it as racist/offensive.
You claimed “No, it’s inverted Racism to assume you will not be welcome. That is the “Coloured” person assuming that ALL whites are racist and will not treat them fairly.
Non-white people that do not go racing or do not apply for racing jobs because of a perceived unwelcomeness should not be thought of as (how you put it) “inverted racists”. You do not know these people, they (or just people they know) may have experienced racism in the past and as a consequence naturally do not go to places they “feel” unwelcome. How the …. is that inverted racism? To call them that seems like blaming them for the racism they may have encountered which led to them feeling unwelcome. Which taken as an individual theory came across as (well)… “racist”. Which is why although I defended yo against the claim of being a Bad Racist saying:
“You are “not a racist at heart, Steve”, I did go on to say “but some of your views imo lack an understanding of what some people face. Therefore those views can come across as being racist”. I did not believe you are racist at heart and have subsequently been proved right. Those long posts also add to the evidence, so now that inverted racist post comes more in to perspective and looks far less racist. May be it was just a wrong description rather than a racist comment. Inverted racism does exist, just shouldn’t be used to describe this case.
It’s not the only post on this subject that got you in trouble though.
You rightly found offensive stuff on that other forum; we agree it was (what our 2018 attitudes can see as) obvious racism. However, what we now find offensive includes comedy, The Goodies brand of comedy was a particular kind of sometimes surrealist irony/parody on life. They used to take the p out of everything and everyone, including fascists, Scottish, Margret Thatcher etc. All three Goodies have subsequently stated their left wing beliefs. Now, I agree with you in that this kind of stuff was ineffective and indeed counter productive irony/parody. So am not defending it, but as I say they took the p out of everything and everyone. Can’t remember exactly but I think they also did a piece on what passed as the “PC Brigade” of those days too; a PC Brigade that is probably our mainstream view today. Seem to remember a sketch that went something like:
“I heard there is a coloured, female, dwarf on next week. Her gender is described as bi/homo/curious. Wheelchair-bound and blind, she is still managing to tip more winners than me. The downside is her Tourette’s syndrome and thick Scottish accent (in no particular order) but she can surely allay fears of stereo typical white guests week after week, as long as viewers can tolerate the outbursts of “Gan, ya f***in’ dancer”
ps She has ginger hair”.Oh, hold on – that was an attempt at comedy in your first post on this subject. A Post that could’ve come from the Goodies of today or an internet troll who’s against any investigation in to diversity issues and deliberately provocative. If that came from another TRFer and included your wife’s disability I wonder if you’d have understood the irony.
When another TRFer found it offensive you came back with “don’t aim the term bigotry at me pal. You don’t know me. Don’t make assumptions” etc etc. But how should he know? Again, people can only take an opinion about a post by what they knew about you and at the time that was your only post on the subject. They haven’t been able to see all your writings on every other forum you’ve ever posted on and didn’t then know your life history. If it is wrong for people to pass comments and opinions on your views and opinions expressed on ONLY this forum, why do you make assumptions on other TRFers from ONLY what they say on this forum?
Anyway:
Thank you for sharing what you said on that other forum and about your life story, it confirms my earlier belief and am happy to restate that you are not a racist at heart.P.S Don’t you think a lot of TRFers have learnt the same life lessons as you?
If it wasn’t for three people I could have turned out racist.
Thanks to Michelle Edwards, Mark Ihanacho and strangely enough a white man, John Peel.Value Is EverythingYou’d think the BHA are spending our hard earned looking into this the way many of you are resisting.
Mr. Tipster, you wonder why you see lots of people from ethnic minority backgrounds (ridiculous that we have to come with such descriptions so as not to offend people) but few at the racecourse.
Could be lots of reasons. A day at the races is quite expensive and perhaps they would rather spend the money that it costs, to get to the racecourse and then gain entrance to, on the cert they’ve spotted at York or Sedgefield. Probably a couple of drinks as well.
Another reason could be that they’ve seen photographic evidence of what goes on at racecourses and rather not be set upon by buzzed-up white men in their Southgate’s and have their heads kicked in.
To be honest I think there are more pressing problems that the people who run racing should be sorting out.
Colin
Could be lots of reasons. A day at the races is quite expensive and perhaps they would rather spend the money that it costs, to get to the racecourse and then gain entrance to, on the cert they’ve spotted at York or Sedgefield. Probably a couple of drinks as well.
Yes, that could put many off Colin; but if so why should it put off non-whites significantly more than whites?
Value Is Everythingif
they did a survey and results came back that the main part of the reason they didn’t attend was because of the drinking culture do you think they would do anything about it…?
The answer would be no because the money is the main priority, always has been and always will be
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Another reason could be that they’ve seen photographic evidence of what goes on at racecourses and rather not be set upon by buzzed-up white men in their Southgate’s and have their heads kicked in.
Personally, I doubt they’ve given as much thought to look up photographic evidence. But I agree they may be put off by similar thoughts. Doubt the actual statistics back the particular fear up, but that problem does seem to be getting worse. All things considered I suspect it is more a perceived threat than a real one.
Value Is EverythingHows this going to be monitored?
Separate entrances perhaps?
How do they monitor and check for gays? Where do trannies fit in?
What about dwarfs?
Been watching a lot of online Cheltenham previews over the last week or so.
Yet to see a non-white panellist.
When I used to visit the meetings down South on the flat a few years back on a weekend day, like Sandown Park and Ascot, there was a mix of mainly White and Asian ethnicities going to the races to have, what I presumed to be, a nice day out on a nice warm day.
Maybe its a seasonal thing, or a regional thing, or a mix of both. I saw less Afro-Caribbean people attending though at the meets when I went, whether they have little or no interest overall in Horse Racing, and prefer other sports, I don’t know.
As other’s have said, there is cost involved going to the races so it’s what people prefer to do with their money as well.
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