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Horses with sub-optimal biomechanics are prone to over-reaches, so you can’t write off Pour Moi’s injury as ‘one of those things’. He was an extremely talented colt, but was visibly unbalanced at Epsom en route to his Derby win. While that was testament to his raw ability, it did raise doubts about his physical make-up.
It’s like Cracksman. He’s an ungainly mover and is turned-out on his near fore from a conformation perspective. He didn’t handle the contours of Epsom very well and is probably more at risk of developing problems than the typical horse. It’s an inexact science of course (there weren’t many tougher and sounder campaigners than ‘ugly bug’ Lough Derg over jumps) but the rules of thumb hold up in general.
This is why so much weight is held on the Epsom Derby in the breeding world. On the face of it, it’s an unfair turning track with unusual camber and not the best place to run a prestigious race. On the flip side, it rewards horses with excellent balance and constitution – any top class colt who can hold their position, run straight and quicken up the straight at Epsom is likely to be the model of a perfect racehorse. Have many horses visibly handled Epsom better than Galileo did in his Derby year? It’s no coincidence that he stamps his progeny with assets like soundness, progression and balance in addition to great ability.
Pour Moi suffered his over-reach in late August, the best part of 3 months after the Derby, so I don’t see how that has anything to do with his over-reach.
If Pour Moi was prone to over-reaches, he would have worn over-reach boots to protect him in training, they wouldn’t have taken any chances with a Derby winner.
Horses with sub-optimal biomechanics are prone to over-reaches, so you can’t write off Pour Moi’s injury as ‘one of those things’. He was an extremely talented colt, but was visibly unbalanced at Epsom en route to his Derby win. While that was testament to his raw ability, it did raise doubts about his physical make-up.
It’s like Cracksman. He’s an ungainly mover and is turned-out on his near fore from a conformation perspective. He didn’t handle the contours of Epsom very well and is probably more at risk of developing problems than the typical horse. It’s an inexact science of course (there weren’t many tougher and sounder campaigners than ‘ugly bug’ Lough Derg over jumps) but the rules of thumb hold up in general.
This is why so much weight is held on the Epsom Derby in the breeding world. On the face of it, it’s an unfair turning track with unusual camber and not the best place to run a prestigious race. On the flip side, it rewards horses with excellent balance and constitution – any top class colt who can hold their position, run straight and quicken up the straight at Epsom is likely to be the model of a perfect racehorse. Have many horses visibly handled Epsom better than Galileo did in his Derby year? It’s no coincidence that he stamps his progeny with assets like soundness, progression and balance in addition to great ability.
If Cracksman were an athlete, he would be former British middle distance runner Peter Elliott, who always looked like he was going to start crying in his races, such was his style of movement. Elliott used to move like he was born with arthritis.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
On the flip side, it rewards horses with excellent balance and constitution
hang on, doesn’t this contradict what you were saying earlier about the pour moi line being fundamentally unsound?
On the flip side, it rewards horses with excellent balance and constitution
hang on, doesn’t this contradict what you were saying earlier about the pour moi line being fundamentally unsound?
Don’t think I contradicted myself Judgey. I said he won the Derby in spite of failing to handle the track very well. The horse obviously had a big engine in spite of a few kinks in the chassis.
Great comparison btw Steve. Paula Radcliffe another candidate – head bobbing, no rhythm in her stride but a massive engine.
Haven’t seen much of Cracksman but if he dishes that badly on his near-fore, he won’t have got that from his sire. Frankel had one of the straightest actions I’ve ever seen. He tracked so straight I suspect a significant part of his superiority came from his action.
Going back to the race:-
Cracksman’s action is very reminiscent of Mark Johnston’s filly Attraction who seemed to be at her best racing from the front of the pack, even pulling away when winning the Coronation Stakes. Just wondered whether this might suit Cracksman as he certainly seems to build up his speed towards the end of his races, he just seemed to be given too much to do on Saturday, would like to see him at the front end rather than held up in future races.
Thanks for the link to ATR for the replay Steve
JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Whatever the question marks over soundness with WOE, Richard Forristal in the RP argues that his courage will be attractive to breeders:
As such, his performance can arguably be upgraded and that bit of tenacity is an invaluable trait breeders cherish when it comes to evaluating sires.
The injury sounds severe (there’s a copy of the Xray on the RP site). Here is O’Brien:
O’Brien said here that the fracture was so significant that it cast a fresh light on Wings Of Eagles’ performance on Saturday. “We’re very lucky that it didn’t come apart during the race,” the trainer said. “You’re always worried when they pull out in the morning [after a race] and when he pulled out, he was very sore. When he was x-rayed, his sesamoid was coming apart.
“It’s incredible that he ran the race that he did really. We’re very sorry to lose him, he was an unusual horse who stayed very well but quickened very well. When John [Magnier, one of the colt’s owners] saw the x-ray, there was absolutely no chance that he would ever race again and I think he might have a pin put in it on Monday.
“I was speaking to JP [Magnier] on the way home last night and saying that he was a perfect horse to have a midsummer break and then give him a prep for the Arc. That’s the type of horse that we thought he was going to be.”
Still, reflecting on all this, I’m always wary when a post-race injury comes to light. He wasn’t lame after the race and Moore obviously felt nothing during the race. RP reports that a sesamoid fracture is generally a ‘high-speed injury’, so there could be something in what LS says regarding soundness and conformation:
When a horse is at full stretch, the fetlock can extend to the point where the sesamoid bones make contact with the ground. If the pressure is too great, the bones can shatter and, in some instances, the injuries sustained can be fatal
Whatever the horse was feeling, I think it’s always safer to rely on what you see and how the rider reacts and much as I admired Wings of Eagles and had high hopes, were he still racing I wouldn’t mark him up for Saturday.
Strange reaction to the news IMHO. As Charlie post said on the Sunday forum if you take out the Derby win it’s a cracking run by woe. There’s is no reason to believe he couldn’t have progressed and been a player at champions day or the arc. As for the breeding he’s just run in two fast runner derbies and done well. I leave it to the so called breeding experts to decide if he’s worth breeding from but many horses have had bad injuries and gonna on to produce tough,top horses.
If Cracksman were an athlete, he would be former British middle distance runner Peter Elliott, who always looked like he was going to start crying in his races, such was his style of movement. Elliott used to move like he was born with arthritis.
:) :) :) Very good. I was a big fan of Peter Elliot as well!!!
Anthony Oppenheimer has just said they will probably give him a little break now and give him some time to develop. They are already looking forward to his 4 year old career apparently. So they are probably looking at one of the Arc trials or that race at Newbury. Agree with Jac – he needs to be ridden prominently..
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
many horses have had bad injuries and gonna on to produce tough,top horses.
Definitely true and part of the reason why Titus’ health register idea is a good one: breeders could look up, down and sideways through pedigrees to see if injuries appeared to be just unfortunate or part of a pattern.
Also…such a relief it didn’t fall to bits in running or he could’ve ended up like Eight Belles, or Barbaro..fingers crossed for successful surgery and a complication-free recovery.
I also like the idea of more information being available to breeders – much as somebody posted here about HK (apologies, I can’t recall who it was). Personally I’m not too bothered about dishing, or other movement defects, but I would respect anybody’s else’s opinion to the opposite. It’s a judgment call on fractures – heavily campaigned, and you might be tempted to excuse it. Lightly raced, not for me. Injured horses breeding good ones is not necessarily a case for continuing the trend. Flemensfirth (lightly raced) suffered a fracture, and more than 60% of his foals do not make the track. Same for Milan We only hear about the success stories. Horses don’t make the track for lots of reasons (commercial viability is one), but for very commercial sires who produce marketable stock, these rates are poor. Who knows if unsoundness is the cause, but it’s no more a leap of faith than saying that WoE’s performance was all the more meritorious for his injury, and that he would have been an Arc horse. Suddenly this is a fact?
At least older horses do get campaigned on the Flat a bit more than they used to (I think- the Flat fans know better); and the veteran’s chases would interest me too if I was a NH breeder…I’d be looking to see what names crop up in the pedigrees of horses that are still sound and racing when they’re in double figures.
Just to touch back on the quality of this year’s Derbies.
I don’t think calling them a mediocre bunch is necessarily an indictment of this year’s 3yo middle distance colts, mediocre is not the same as bad. I don’t think there is a star colt amongst them but that doesn’t mean I think they’re all bad racehorses, they’re somewhere in between i.e mediocre. Not every year has to be a vintage year, and it would be a disservice to the truly great Derby winners of the past to call the quality of this year’s Derbies anything but average/mediocre/middling, in my humble opinion. I don’t think the likes of Almanzor or even Highland Reel have too much to worry about.
Also congrats to Big G and Gingertipster on backing Capri.
Just to touch back on the quality of this year’s Derbies.
I don’t think calling them a mediocre bunch is necessarily an indictment of this year’s 3yo middle distance colts, mediocre is not the same as bad. I don’t think there is a star colt amongst them but that doesn’t mean I think they’re all bad racehorses, they’re somewhere in between i.e mediocre. Not every year has to be a vintage year, and it would be a disservice to the truly great Derby winners of the past to call the quality of this year’s Derbies anything but average/mediocre/middling, in my humble opinion. I don’t think the likes of Almanzor or even Highland Reel have too much to worry about.
Also congrats to Big G and Gingertipster on backing Capri.
I agree with that, after all the form of this year’s Derby is looking very good indeed. Benbatl, Permian (beat Khalidi into 2nd), Capri & Rekindling have all come out and won.
Also…such a relief it didn’t fall to bits in running or he could’ve ended up like Eight Belles, or Barbaro..fingers crossed for successful surgery and a complication-free recovery.
Regarding Eight Belles and Barbaro, both of these horses were mentioned in an interesting article which asked whether the thoroughbred is being “Bred to destruction”
The thing that stood out for me was that Sires in the 1960’s would cover 40 to 50 mares in a typical season, whereas, by the mid 1990’s this had risen to 150+ mares per season.
The full article is here:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wondermonkey/2011/11/bred-to-destruction.shtml
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
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