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Where is the quiet and unassuming one now??
That was fantastic and not just because I backed it. It is always great to see an impressive Derby winner and I am not talking out of my pocket!!
It shows breeding is not an exact science and it also shows how diverse and interesting the opinions of others are.
I think GH may well be really top class over ten/twelve furlongs and hopefully later in the year will take on some top class older horses so we can see how good he is.Well done Johnny G and well done Frankie and well done Mr Oppenheimer too for stumping up the 75k to run!!
My brother and I have been ‘discussing’ the post-race stuff on the phone.
I like Frankie, he hates him. This time I have to agree, Dettori was a total arsehole after the race. He was on the best horse and he rode the race perfectly the way it panned out but his antics were distasteful to say the least.
He tried to make it all about him but there was much more to this win than him. I particularly disliked the way he interrupted the TV interview with the self-effacing Mr Oppenheimer who was trying to heap praise on his staff but the wee man jumped in there and monopolised the interview.
As a racing fan, the result was so good from so many perspectives: Gosden is one of my favourite trainers and always compelling listening when he speaks; GH was the best horse who defied his breeding limitations and was an emphatic winner; JH ran a super race and was a thoroughly meritorious runner-up; the £70k supplementary gamble by the owner paid off in style.
And yet for the jockey, it was all about him and winning his second Derby.
The only negative (apart from my own bets) on the day.
By the way, wasn’t William Haggas brilliant after the race?
Both Haggas and Gosden are two of the best trio exceptional in talking racing Maurice, the other is Sir Mark.
Value Is EverythingThere are better 7/4 chances but now the ground looks to be Good or faster I cannot see beyond Golden Horn.
He is not bred to stay but shapes as if he will and was impressive over 10.4f at York.
An OR of 118 puts him in with the same chance as Australia at this stage last year.
Storm The Stars is my idea of the most progressive outsider.
Go me! =D
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Sorry Maurice I have to disagree. YI don’t think he was an arsehole at all and I didn’t find it in the least bit distasteful. On the contrary I loved every second of it as did my children. Yes it was not very “British” but Dettori’s reactions showed how much it meant to him. He has been on an incredible journey over the last few years and must have feared his best days were behind him when he got fired by Godolphin. What we saw was genuine delight after what must also have been a nerve wracking few weeks. He talked plenty about John Gosden and about the owner and he was only enjoying his moment as far as I could see. It is probably down to personal taste but I would much prefer to see someone looking ecstatically happy at winning the worlds best flat race than a stone-faced Ryan Moore.
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My brother and I have been ‘discussing’ the post-race stuff on the phone.
I like Frankie, he hates him. This time I have to agree, Dettori was a total arsehole after the race. He was on the best horse and he rode the race perfectly the way it panned out but his antics were distasteful to say the least.
He tried to make it all about him but there was much more to this win than him. I particularly disliked the way he interrupted the TV interview with the self-effacing Mr Oppenheimer who was trying to heap praise on his staff but the wee man jumped in there and monopolised the interview.
As a racing fan, the result was so good from so many perspectives: Gosden is one of my favourite trainers and always compelling listening when he speaks; GH was the best horse who defied his breeding limitations and was an emphatic winner; JH ran a super race and was a thoroughly meritorious runner-up; the £70k supplementary gamble by the owner paid off in style.
And yet for the jockey, it was all about him and winning his second Derby.
The only negative (apart from my own bets) on the day.
I don’t usually like this type of thing but saw nothing wrong with it today. If it was the Oppenheimer interview I saw, Frankie came out from weighing-in and wanted to hug his friend and celebrate. Am sure Oppenheimer did not mind one bit. Just because Detori was ecstatic and wanted to show his delight does not mean he believes it’s all about him. Indeed I thought he gave everyone involved with the horse plenty of praise. It’s clear Frankie and Johnny are very close friends and appreciate each other’s skills. A jockey that wins the Biggest race in History should celebrate! 18 months ago am sure Frankie thought he was finished, so the outburst is understandable.
Value Is EverythingOn this thread, both before and after the Derby, comments have been made that Golden Horn’s pedigree, in relation to an indication of his stamina, have implied that he had a low probability of staying the Derby distance. One post said “… a complete freak to win at that distance with his pedigree …”. I think we all know that numbers do not tell the whole story about anything to do with racing, but there is a numerical system of assessing stamina called the Dosage System, which has been around since the middle of the last century and still going strong. The Dosage Index (DI) of Golden Horn indicates his pedigree has more stamina than six other Derby winners in the last twenty-five years, and sixteen other Derby winners in the last fifty years. His pedigree indicates his stamina is well within the normal range for Derby winners, and certainly not in the range of “freak”.
You can check the Dosage Index of most thoroughbreds at http://www.pedigreequery.com. The lower the DI, the more stamina a horse is likely to possess.
It was me that said that, and I know about dosage and have been studying pedigrees since I was eleven. What made me doubt his ability to stay was how the mares have injected speed into all the stallions, with Cape Cross being a miler sired by a sprinter, admittedly one who can sire horses who stay further than him. Obviously Mr Oppenheimer had doubts himself or the colt would not have needed to be supplemented.
I might add that I love horse racing and breeding, but I have found this forum a bit unpleasant at times.tbh I’ve never been interested in the dosage index myself. As far as I know it does not take in to account temperament of an individual which is to my mind more important than who the sire or dam is. Also, some horses seem to instil more stamina with their best horses than they do with others.
Value Is EverythingWell I had a payout on my EW stake on Storm The Stars. :)
I thought Golden Horn wouldn’t stay, and was wrong.
Wow. Well I have to say I thought that was mightily impressive from Golden Horn and Jack Hobbs surely is a proper top group one horse as well. Isn’t racing a funny game? A couple of days ago I thought the Oaks looked the stronger race in depth, now after both classics have been run the Derby suddenly looks pretty damn strong.
Well done to those who backed the winner – he looks seriously top class and despite my reservations he clearly stayed the trip alright.
Who else would love to see Golden Horn vs Gleneagles over ten furlongs?
Well done to Steve Cauthen and all the other Golden Horn fans.
I must admit I feel quite stupid there because like a lot of others I over analysed the race and put too much emphasis on the pedigree angle.
I’ve actually been for a jog around the York track and it’s a hell of a racetrack- if you can gallop around there over 10 furlongs and still produce a kick at the end of it, then a mile an half around Epsom should be a doddle.
I backed Jack Hobbs and went he kicked into the lead in the home straight I started screaming at the tv only to be deflated moments later when Golden Horn swept past him doing a passable impression of pegasus
Jack Hobbs is a top class horse in his own right and if they can keep him away from his wonderhorse of a stablemate then I think he will bag a top prize by the end of the season
in fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they sent Golden Horn for the eclipse while keeping Jack Hobbs for the Curragh and the Irish derby- I think he could be nailed on there as the galloping track in Ireland will be right up his street.
Cape Cross is by a sprinter miler (not just “sprinter”) Green Desert. Champion sprinter but would’ve won many 2000 Guineas, second to Dancing Brave. Although it is true he is an influence of speed rather than stamina. Dam Park Appeal was a Cheveley Park winner but stayed 1 mile in USA. Cape Cross himself raced almost exclusively at a mile. Only once raced over 9f in an AW listed race in Dubai, thought unsuited by the surface. I believe despite a miler pedigree Cape Cross would have been equally effective at 1m2f because of his temperament. So laid back, according to Timeform often lethargic in the paddock and half asleep. This relaxed attitude has been passed on to most of the best racehorses he’s sired and enables them to stay further than (only) pedigree suggests they should. Settled very well in the Dante, moved so fluently and wasn’t stopping at the end of a truly run race.
Value Is EverythingWho else would love to see Golden Horn vs Gleneagles over ten furlongs?
…Vs American Pharaoh
Value Is EverythingOf course he’s had to improve because his stablemate has improved. Look at the gaps back to the rest. The Dante was a very good race Zark and these are two very good horses who will both be rated well into the 120’s after this. As for your opinion on GH – yours would be a one man jury I reckon!!!
The Dante 1-2-3 were 1-2-3 in the Derby betting before the gamble on Giovanni C. That suggests it was the only worthwhile trial.
Halling (Jack Hobbs’ sire) wasn’t good til he was a 4 year old. His dam was unraced but her dam only achieved blacktype at the end of her 3yo career, on her 17th start. Damsire, Swain, also took time getting up to Group 1 standard. Everything about Jack Hobbs, including the way his trainer trains his horses, suggests he’ll get better with age. The fact that he’s finished 2nd in a Derby suggests to me that he’s either a freak, or, more likely IMO, he’s run a solid race and the standard he’s currently at (a shadow of what he’s really capable of) was good enough to finish 2nd in a bad Derby.
For the time being I’m still erring on the skeptical side of things re. Golden Horn. Wouldn’t be the first time a super impressive Derby winner didn’t end up being all that.
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>IBRacing wrote:</div>
Who else would love to see Golden Horn vs Gleneagles over ten furlongs?…Vs American Pharaoh
Yeah. What a race that would be.
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