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Article on the ratings here: http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/08/11/07/RACING_Ratings.html
Personally I have no idea how they rate Henry and Goldikova below Papal Bull. Surely they revise ratings once form lines are joined up. The older brigade were patently not as good as everyone thought initially and imo Zarkava is a far superior horse to The Duke.
I also appreciate that Montmartre put in a stellar performance in the Grand Prix de Paris but does that really constitute him also being rate above the first mentioned?
Also Curlin is not the best horse in the world I don’t believe.
Strange.
Not sure how or why they have Papul Bull higher than Henrythenavigator or Golikova, that’s a strange one.
Does anyone have a full list of present, international ratings by any chance please? ? ?
I would also have Ravens Pass higher than Curlin.
It’s a bit cumbersome but here’s the full list together with past rankings
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resour … Horses.asp
I’ll refrain from commenting on the ratings for fear of being banned from the forum!
I would have Henry and Ravens Pass both higher than Curlin, and zarkava too, because IMO if she had went for the BCC she would have beaten him too. IMO Curlin just faced better horses in the BCC than he has faced so far, which says to me that he was never a 130 horse in the first place. Also, and correct me if Im mistaken but wasnt his 130 rating given to him for winning a 1 horse race in dubai in the absence of any decent yardsticks.
I personally dislike the way horses tend be rated on one performance alone. Curlin has not run anywhere near 130 since Dubai.
I would have Henry and Ravens Pass both higher than Curlin, and zarkava too, because IMO if she had went for the BCC she would have beaten him too. IMO Curlin just faced better horses in the BCC than he has faced so far, which says to me that he was never a 130 horse in the first place. Also, and correct me if Im mistaken but wasnt his 130 rating given to him for winning a 1 horse race in dubai in the absence of any decent yardsticks.
Do you want to rate Red Rocks higher than Curlin too? After all, he beat him fair and square on turf……
Personally I have no idea how they rate Henry and Goldikova below Papal Bull.
Papal Bull has to be rated around 126 in the King George in order to justify Duke Of Marmalade’s rating in the same race.
It’s a bit cumbersome but here’s the full list together with past rankings
http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resour … Horses.asp
I’ll refrain from commenting on the ratings for fear of being banned from the forum!
Thank you David.
- Total Posts 17716
Papal Bull was raised by the Official Handicapper from 116 to 121 for his close 4th in the Coronation Cup.
As a horse who needs fast ground and a strong pace to show his best, it’s no surprise that he ran better in the KG, and was raised another 5lb to 126 which I’d say was a reasonable assessment.I would have Henry and Ravens Pass both higher than Curlin, and zarkava too, because IMO if she had went for the BCC she would have beaten him too. IMO Curlin just faced better horses in the BCC than he has faced so far, which says to me that he was never a 130 horse in the first place. Also, and correct me if Im mistaken but wasnt his 130 rating given to him for winning a 1 horse race in dubai in the absence of any decent yardsticks.
Do you want to rate Red Rocks higher than Curlin too? After all, he beat him fair and square on turf……
Did think about that smithy but couldnt remember the distance that was over, think it may have been 1m4f, I remember it was gd-fm which should have been right up curlins street but nevertheless IMVHO Curlin ran his race in the BCC and was put in his place by two better horses and another who came late to pass an already beaten curlin. And like I say I would also have fancied Zarkava to have done him aswell.
If Curlin trully was a 130 horse then he would not have been beaten as easily as he was at his ideal trip on a surface that I would describe as ideal for him. I could accept if there was some sort of problem but there wasnt he ran his race, he met no trouble, he got beaten by better horses.
It was clear in the aftermath that everyone saw the BCC differently but that was how I saw it.
If Papal Bull is a 126 horse I’m a Unicorn.
Duke Of Marmalade ran to only around 121ish in the King George and 123ish in the Arc he’s a better horse at ten furlongs. Papal Bull is around a 120 horse at his very best when he puts it all in, he’s no better than that.
Curlin – Well he’s American isn’t he? Was bound to be top rated. Crazy but innevitable.
If you want to use ratings use and compile your own thats my advice because they are the only ones you can trust others are at times at best baffling and at worse mesmerizing whether its IC, Timeform, RP or whatever.
- Total Posts 17716
Unicorn
If you have an opinion, it might be more credible if backed up by something other than more of your opinion.
I would have Henry and Ravens Pass both higher than Curlin, and zarkava too, because IMO if she had went for the BCC she would have beaten him too. IMO Curlin just faced better horses in the BCC than he has faced so far, which says to me that he was never a 130 horse in the first place. Also, and correct me if Im mistaken but wasnt his 130 rating given to him for winning a 1 horse race in dubai in the absence of any decent yardsticks.
Do you want to rate Red Rocks higher than Curlin too? After all, he beat him fair and square on turf……
Did think about that smithy but couldnt remember the distance that was over, think it may have been 1m4f, I remember it was gd-fm which should have been right up curlins street but nevertheless IMVHO Curlin ran his race in the BCC and was put in his place by two better horses and another who came late to pass an already beaten curlin. And like I say I would also have fancied Zarkava to have done him aswell.
If Curlin trully was a 130 horse then he would not have been beaten as easily as he was at his ideal trip on a surface that I would describe as ideal for him. I could accept if there was some sort of problem but there wasnt he ran his race, he met no trouble, he got beaten by better horses.
It was clear in the aftermath that everyone saw the BCC differently but that was how I saw it.
Personally, I think to suggest that Pro Ride is his ideal surface displays a lack of understanding of dirt racing.He is an attritional galloper and his effort in defeat on a wholly unsuitable surface should be applauded, rather than knocked imo.
As a horse who needs fast ground and a strong pace to show his best, it’s no surprise that he ran better in the KG, and was raised another 5lb to 126 which I’d say was a reasonable assessment.
Are you willing to admit he’s a hound of the highest order yet, reet?
- Total Posts 17716
As a horse who needs fast ground and a strong pace to show his best, it’s no surprise that he ran better in the KG, and was raised another 5lb to 126 which I’d say was a reasonable assessment.
Are you willing to admit he’s a hound of the highest order yet, reet?
Not at all Friggo. Michael Stoute tends not to keep hounds, particularly 5yo ones!
Neither his nor the horse’s fault that they only had the opportunity to show his true form on one occasion this season though.Reet 90% of what is written on forums is opinion based thats what forums are for. It is very difficult to give fact when you’re talking ratings as it is not an exact science and it is very much open to interpretation.
One fact I will give you is Papal Bull in nineteen other starts has not reproduced once the mark he was given for his King George run. That mark was given as someone has already mentioned to justify the mark given to Duke Of Marmalade as it was widely assumed at the time that the Duke had given a performance the equal of his form at ten furlongs.
Given the Duke’s next run at twelve furlongs Papal Bull’s nineteen other career runs and the overall profile of both horses it has to be pretty long odds against that those King George ratings are accurate.
Gingertipster is a percentage man, maybe he can price the liklihood up for us?
- Total Posts 17716
Opinions are just opinions, unless supported by some corroboration.
Ratings are also just ratings, until they take circumstances achieved in into consideration.
Papal Bull has a near-perfect record on fast ground, his only 2 blips coming when badly hampered in the Derby and in a Jockey Club Stakes run at a crawl. The softer the ground and slower the pace, the more his form deteriorates, as does his rating, and opinions based on that lesser form are as unreliable as ratings based on his overall form.
Imo, of course.
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