- This topic has 65 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 7 months ago by
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Posts
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I made the mistake of thinking that
monksfield
‘s thread was a genuine question, which I attempted to answer. I realise now that it was just a sneer (as the title of the thread suggested) which I ought to have ignored.
He wasn’t interested in discovering where the phrase came from. He already knew what it meant in general terms, as do you, Prat (assuming that was a signature to your post.) And if you didn’t, my post would have given you a clue.
When you say "I was over the moon", do you think that literally means you jumped it? When you say "I slept like a log", do you think that logs actually sleep, or that you are made of wood?
So when a horse "jumps from fence to fence", do you really think it is meant as a literal observation?
These, dear Prat, are examples of metaphor, which is what makes language, and our way of describing experience, the beautiful thing it is.
And if anyone is doing the "patronising", it’s
monksfield
, and
Pompete
and you, Prat. This poster was only trying to be helpful, and has had his hand bitten off as thanks.
No, from what i read when i opened the thread was someone asking a guinuene question. i felt your responce was both patronising and in poor taste. I totally understand what a methaphor is and how it make our language what it is.
I apologise for the use of the term ‘prat’, i did edit this but unfortunetely was too late.
I have nothing else to say on the mattter to be honest.
So i will close the door on the way out.
Have a nice day
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May I recommend a relaxing bath with jasmine, lavender, rose hips and a little Tahitian vanilla?
You may indeed, but I’ve got a couple of deadlines to meet, so the Good Things of Life (lavender as much as linguistic beauty) must alas wait until my personal falange of houris and catamites arrive later this evening!
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No, from what i read when i opened the thread was someone asking a guinuene question. i felt your responce was both patronising and in poor taste. I totally understand what a methaphor is and how it make our language what it is.
I apologise for the use of the term ‘prat’, i did edit this but unfortunetely was too late.
My apologies too, OLAS – I thought ‘prat’ was your signature rather than a rudeness, and thank you for editing it out.
We will agree to differ on how genuinely
monksfield
was asking for information, which he got, and how far he was merely having a sneer at the expense of racing’s rich phraseology.
I really am at a loss to know, though, just why you (or anyone else) could have construed anything either "patronising" or "in poor taste" about my response, which was intended to be helpful, and to highlight the wonderful richness of the way we talk about this sport we love.
Sailing apart, Racing itself has contributed more metaphors to the language than any other activity. That seems to me something for celebration, not sneering.
One of my favourite expressions is ‘serving it up’ but I’m not sure from where that one originates.
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One of my favourite expressions is ‘serving it up’ but I’m not sure from where that one originates.
Hammond doesn’t have an entry on this, but I’d assume that tennis lies behind it ("serving up" having been used as far back as Henry VIII and Royal Tennis).
Alternatively, there’s always the kitchen sense of "piling the food high on the plate", but the tennis reference would fit much better.
I’m imagining you peering at your screen, smoking jacket and cigarette holder ahoy
my kinda guy
tenet insanabile multos scribendi cacoethes
I can tolerate most of the racing speak; in fact, probably all – but I used to cringe slightly when I heard the expression – yes, he ( the horse in question ) won the "other day."
As it was saturday, I naturally assumed it was either Thursday or Wednesday John Oaksey ( for twas the good Lord who mostly used it
) was referrring to – but nay, he meant seven weeks ago. But, the one that really takes the biscuit for me is Nicky Henderson. Not Mr. Henderson per se ; rather his annoying habit of referring to one of his horses as " a real nice person " or – " he’s actually a lovely person."
Nicky, come on, get a grip. It is an animal you speak of – albeit one you probably love to bits.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
One of my favourite expressions is ‘serving it up’ but I’m not sure from where that one originates.
Hammond doesn’t have an entry on this, but I’d assume that tennis lies behind it ("serving up" having been used as far back as Henry VIII and Royal Tennis).
Alternatively, there’s always the kitchen sense of "piling the food high on the plate", but the tennis reference would fit much better.
I think you may find it has an entirely different connotation in parts of what is poetically known as Caledonia!
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I crawled on six crooked highwaysI take "jumped from fence to fence" to refer to a horse really enjoying his job, comfortable in his rhythm and always ready for the next fence many strides away.
The opposite being the bumbling, fiddling characters who seem mystified when the next obstacle is approaching.
Wouldn’t it more accurate to describe a phrase such as ‘jumped from fence to fence’ as a
cliche
rather than a
metaphor
?
Colin
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Wouldn’t it more accurate to describe a phrase such as ‘jumped from fence to fence’ as a
cliche
rather than a
metaphor
?
Alas, the fate of all good metaphors. It must have been a great description when Captain Becher (or whoever) first used it, but I’d have to agree that time has taken a lot of the shine off it!
Thanks, The Young Fella……shame your post wasn’t the first reply to what was a genuine question.
Pinza, I’m sorry but there’s definitely a whiff of condescension about your first (and subsequent) posts. You made me feel ashamed that I shouldn’t know such a thing! Read it again, see if you can see where I’m coming from. I’ll ignore your rather pathetic asides, congratulate you on your no doubt worthy work (entirely irrelevant here of course), and invite you to look up the word ‘metaphor’, because ‘jumping from fence to fence’ sure as hell isn’t one.
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Thanks, The Young Fella……shame your post wasn’t the first reply to what was a genuine question.
Pinza, I’m sorry but there’s definitely a whiff of condescension about your first (and subsequent) posts. You made me feel ashamed that I shouldn’t know such a thing! Read it again, see if you can see where I’m coming from. I’ll ignore your rather pathetic asides, congratulate you on your no doubt worthy work (entirely irrelevant here of course), and invite you to look up the word ‘metaphor’, because ‘jumping from fence to fence’ sure as hell isn’t one.
The Young Fella:
"a horse really enjoying his job, comfortable in his rhythm and always ready for the next fence many strides away."
Pinza:
"the horse jumped with enthusiasm and expertise"
Well not much difference there, then. And no "condescension" either that I can see. So you had a sensible answer straight away, though you chose to ignore it and take a pop at the poster instead. I prefer
The Young Fella
‘s more considered version too.
This wretched "condescension" is like mud in the eye of the beholder. It clouds the sight. And your "question" did not seem to me on reflection genuine, but rather a thinly disguised sneer at another colourful racing cliché. Otherwise why title the thread
"impenetrable racing speak"
? I tried to suggest in a good-humoured way that the colour was part of the appeal.
You think such language is "impenetrable" and (doubtless) "elitist" – I find your attitude equally clannish, and believe that if anyone is being "condescending" here it’s
you
, by making unpleasant, snide remarks about a person who feels differently about these things, and about whom you make far too many assumptions, all of which happen to be wrong.
As for "metaphor", unless you think that the phrase is literally true, then metaphor is precisely what our phrase is. Comparative description in metaphor is
implicit
(similes are the
explicit
comparisons); so in describing a horse as a creature jumping from one obstacle to another (evoking images of agile animals such as squirrels which jump whilst hardly touching the ground) what we have is a paradigm case of poetic metaphor.
Doubtless I should have risen above it, but I was very offended by your unkind response to my well-meant post, read after a gruelling and demanding evening’s work, and emotional blackmail was not my aim – though I apologise if it made you feel guilty.
Really, you know, there are more important things in life (and on this Forum) to think about, so I hope there’s an end to it. But do not expect me to take cheap flak where it’s unjustified.
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tenet insanabile multos scribendi cacoethes
Ah Drone, thou speakest sooth! In my case, the compulsion’s best followed if I want bread (or better,
focaccia
and
foie gras
) on my (French-polished) table.
And how pleasant to be reminded about the Derby third in Nashwan’s glorious year. A huge brute, who never quite achieved his potential.
"Jumped like a stag" is a metaphor. There’s comparison and evocation there, and even someone like me can understand it. Y’see, I’ve never actually
seen
a stag jump, but I get the picture.
"Jumped from fence to fence" is racing jargon. It’s not used anywhere else and is too literal to be metaphorical
because it’s what actually happens.
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"Jumped like a stag" is a metaphor. There’s comparison and evocation there, and even someone like me can understand it. Y’see, I’ve never actually
seen
a stag jump, but I get the picture.
"Jumped from fence to fence" is racing jargon. It’s not used anywhere else and is too literal to be metaphorical
because it’s what actually happens.
No. "Jumped like a stag" is a simile.
The horse, as you said quite rightly in your first post, does not literally jump from fence to fence. It is not
what actually happens
. It conjures an
implicit
comparative image such as I’ve described of an agile creature hardly touching the ground. That is metaphorical use of language, and it’s the basis of poetry as well as much journalism.
To go back to an example I used earlier in this thread, "I was over the moon" – that is metaphor, because you didn’t actually jump over the moon. There is no need, in metaphor, to make a
direct
comparison with anything.
Similes and Metaphors
To quote
primaryresources.co.uk
:
A metaphor also compares two things, but it does so more directly WITHOUT using as or like. Eg. The shop was a little gold-mine."
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