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Thing is, take Rock On Ruby.
He’s won and placed in a CH, so fair play to him.
But he’s ever so ordinary, isn’t he ?
He is if it suits your argument
The cheek !
(Original post edited)
I always believed the Fly was at his worst on good ground around cheltenham but had the class to overcome it. On soft ground around leopardstown, punchestown, he was in my opinion, probably pretty close to unbeatable. Istabraq was king for me, but I wouldnt be too confident in the mud against this horse.
I cant comment on the golden era of hurdles as I was too young…not sure how anybody knows its a golden era but Im assuming it has to do with great weight carrying feats? However, the current crop of staying hurdlers are just that, staying hurdlers. You couldn’t be sure they could even win a weak champion hurdle.
The one thing that does get me animated in these kind of debates is that people tend to dismiss lifespan of the career as an essential component of being classed as great. Many horses have come and gone, burnt bright for a race, a season, maybe two and then declined. Careers at the top, spanning over half a decade are genuinely precious. It also means your guaranteed to meet some useful opposition along the way.
Im sure your aware of all the conditions, scenarios and excuses as to why most horses, even really good ones get beaten on a regular basis.Its nice when you get the ones, Kauto Star, Big Bucks, Hurricane Fly, that you can set your watch by. They deserve to be called great.
Where
Great
is concerned SHL,
consistency
may have something to do with it, but surely
quality
is the main attribute? How can a "Great" have
inferior
form to a one who’s
not
a Great?
Do find your critique about consistency a little puzzling SHL, when in the preceding paragraph criticises Staying Hurdlers for not having the speed for a Champion Hurdle. What "gets me animated" is with hurdlers some people believe speed is all important, yet for chasers it’s stamina. Surely it is the
level
of form that’s important, not how they show that form?
Huricane Fly has been the
Greatest
2m hurdler of the last decade, so deserves to be a
Great
, just not
"Greatest Ever"
.
Value Is EverythingHas Make A Stand been mentioned yet? 1996/97 was some season for that fella.
Beat Theatreword 5 lengths in Champion. Make A Stand was a good horse. But Istabraq beat Theatreworld by 12 lengths eased up. So imo don’t think he deserves "Great" status Mr. P.
Value Is EverythingThat’s no way to gauge Greatness. Theatreworld was in steep decline by then
Also, Make A Stand made all. No telling how far he could have won by had he been asked. The times of the races were almost identical.Terrific post Mr. Lewis. Darlan better than The Fly? Righto. Why, because he is dead? I’m struggling to find any rationale so it must be sentiment, and misplaced sentiment at that.
Come on FFS. Remember what The Fly did to Go Native every time they met? And as Harry says his regular punching bag Thousand Stars, not to mention a certain Solwhit. The form and consistency look absolutely spectacular to me.
Each to your own opinions and all that, but I’ve read so far on this thread that a peak Fly wouldn’t get placed among this years 2 milers, and would have been stuffed by bloody Darlan!
I don’t think anyone is saying Darlan should be ranked higher than Hurricane Fly in any Greatest list PC. Just that the way he was going compared to Rock On Ruby that day – suggests he would’ve given Hurricane Fly a harder race than the Harry Fry trained gelding. However, we should remember ROR reserves his best for Cheltenham. I would’ve made Hurricane Fly favourite over Darlan in last year’s race, but not by much.
The Fly only beat Go Native "every time they met" only because Go Native fell at the last. However, again it should also be remembered Hurricane Fly has never been at his very best first time out.
It is not that the novices of last year have (as yet) better form than Hurricane Fly. It is just the level of form shown by so many of the top novices last season was much higher than most years. So with normal/average improvement in their second year – you can expect them to be right up with a top form Hurricane Fly… And that’s if the latter can maintain his best level of form at his age.
I don’t normally back three horses for one race a year in advance. But was impressed enough by The New One, My Tent Or Yours and Our Connor to take 14/1, 8/1 and 10/1 (combined price around 11/4) for the 2014 Champion Hurdle before Cheltenham 2013 had finished.
Value Is EverythingThat’s no way to gauge Greatness. Theatreworld was in steep decline by then
Also, Make A Stand made all. No telling how far he could have won by had he been asked. The times of the races were almost identical.Each to his own, but it does not matter to me if they "make all" or held up Mark.
So Theatreworld went on such a "steep decline" after his second to Make A Stand in 1997 – that he not only was good enough to finish second to Istabraq in 1998, but also still able to beat all bar his stable companion in 1999!
Judging times between years is a difficult practice. Make A Stand beat the track record to win in 1997 Mark. However, that should be put in to perspective – as the old record held by Shadow Leader only lasted 75 minutes. Conditions were particularly conducive to fast times in 1997.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl-MgoqhU0Y
It seemed to me AP kept Make A Stand up to his work, "asked", using the whip much more than Swan on Istabraq the following year.
Value Is EverythingThat’s no way to gauge Greatness. Theatreworld was in steep decline by then
Also, Make A Stand made all. No telling how far he could have won by had he been asked. The times of the races were almost identical.Each to his own, but it does not matter to me if they "make all" or held up Mark.
So Theatreworld went on such a "steep decline" after his second to Make A Stand in 1997 – that he not only was good enough to finish second to Istabraq in 1998, but also still able to beat all bar his stable companion in 1999!
I thought you were referring to 2000.
You still can’t compare two races, two distances and say one’s great and the other isn’t
If a horse makes all and his lead is never in doubt, they often win by a reduced margin. If a horse comes off the pace then he is often trying harder, accelerating away from the second and can win by a bigger margin than is necessary.
And i’ve asked you before to stop the repetitive, condescending use of my name throughout posts. Nobody else does it. It’s unnecessary but then you do it intentionally.
Is Hurricane Fly the Greatest hurdler ever? For me No.
Is Hurricane Fly the Best hurdler in training? For me again No.
Statistically Big Bucks has a better record running 19 times over hurdles and
never
getting beaten. Beating regular winners such as Fair Along, Lough Derg, Punchestowns, Mighty Man, Oscar Whisky, Dynaste, Tidal Bay, Grand Crus and Grand National Winner Don’t Push It and I could go on. 4 wins at the festival from 4, meeting every new challenge and seeing each off 1 by one.
Hurricane Fly has a record of 18 wins from 20 runs, on one occasion finishing behind Solwhit and Muirhead on another behind Rock on Ruby and Overturn. Like Big Bucks he’s beaten some good horses when winning his races, has he beaten as many and equal in quality to that of Big Bucks?
Maybe the topic would be more fitting if it was Is Hurricane Fly the Greatest 2 mile hurdler. For me he’s a good horse probably the best since Istabraq, maybe in the top 5-10 best ever, Is he the very best ever? Not in my opinion.
That’s no way to gauge Greatness. Theatreworld was in steep decline by then
Also, Make A Stand made all. No telling how far he could have won by had he been asked. The times of the races were almost identical.Each to his own, but it does not matter to me if they "make all" or held up Mark.
So Theatreworld went on such a "steep decline" after his second to Make A Stand in 1997 – that he not only was good enough to finish second to Istabraq in 1998, but also still able to beat all bar his stable companion in 1999!
I thought you were referring to 2000.
You still can’t compare two races, two distances and say one’s great and the other isn’t
If a horse makes all and his lead is never in doubt, they often win by a reduced margin. If a horse comes off the pace then he is often trying harder, accelerating away from the second and can win by a bigger margin than is necessary.
And i’ve asked you before to stop the repetitive, condescending use of my name throughout posts. Nobody else does it. It’s unnecessary but then you do it intentionally.
What some TRFers find to moan about.
I used your name twice in 4 paragraphs, what’s so "condescending" about that? Certainly not meant to be.Besides, it’s a good name.
Been told when I speak to people I don’t use their name enough, so may be I over-compensate in the written word.
Sorry Thingy, I won’t use your name in future.
Value Is EverythingNobody admires BB more than me, but the list of horses he has vanquished is very low on quality. For whatever reason 3-mile hurdling is less prestigious and competitive and valuable than 2-mile, so the better horses compete there. The same is true for 3-mile chasing to 2-mile chasing. More money, more prestige, better horses, more competition, which I hope SS steps up soon.
The Fly’s record is almost impeccable; the reason that he is under-rated is because he has not performed to his absolute best in England. All he can do is beat all-comers, and rating Persian War above him is heavily influenced by nostalgia. Night Nurse was reularly beaten by Monsfield et all, yet he’s the greatest hurdler?
Never ceases to amaze me how the majority never truely understand what a flawed and idiotic question the "Greatest is?" in regards to horse racing. Can’t remotely say beyond any reasonable doubt.
This thread clearly has been driven by his recent record. Like Goldikova (Group 1 wins) or St Nicholas Abbey (prize money), their reputation has outgrown their ability. Hurricane Fly was more dominant relative to his field that either, though many wins were recorded in races similar to that of Sunday.
He’s clearly an exceptional hurdler. Probably the best in quite awhile, though prime Hardy, Brave Inca, Harchibald era competes well. That is all we can say. Trending the conversation to best ever simply follows this tedious modern day path of always trying to assert one as being dominant ; better than the rest. Rarely is this the case.
I certainly don’t believe Hurricane Fly is the greatest hurdler ever, but that’s another debate for another day.
Having backed Hurricane Fly to win this year’s ( 2013 ) Champion Hurdle, I did so in the belief that his opposition was sub standard and that he had enough left in his locker to see off the challengers – much like Sea Pigeon in 1981 when I backed that old boy to see off his field of wannabes.
However, having watched Hurricane Fly’s previous run ( and win ), my head will now rule my heart where Wullie Mullins’ star hurdler is concerned.
Hurricane Fly is entered to run in the Ryanair Hurdle at Leopardstown on December 29th, where is due to lock horns with Triumph Hurdle winner, Our Conor – my tip to win the 2014 Champion Hurdle.
Ruby Walsh thinks Our Conor will have his work cut out against the current champion. My guess is that Ruby is letting his heart rule his head. My cash will be on Our Conor to show the Hurricane a clean pair of hooves at Leopardstown – and with it, the beginning of the end of a once great Champion. But enough of the hyperbole…
I cannot wait for the big festive showdown in Ireland.
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- Total Posts 17716
Horses of the last couple of decades since we have had colour TV are OVER-RATED. Hurricane Fly was beaten by Rock On Ruby at the Champion Hurdle in Cheltenham 2012, and that settles this subject.
The greatest hurdler ever would have to be unbeaten over hurdles. I have seen many of his races, sub-standard Irish group races where his main opponent always runs no race.
My cash will be on Our Conor to show the Hurricane a clean pair of hooves at Leopardstown
He should give him a good tow into the race alright
But that’s my heart talking
Horses of the last couple of decades since we have had colour TV are OVER-RATED. Hurricane Fly was beaten by Rock On Ruby at the Champion Hurdle in Cheltenham 2012, and that settles this subject.
The greatest hurdler ever would have to be unbeaten over hurdles. I have seen many of his races, sub-standard Irish group races where his main opponent always runs no race.
Exactly.
Not a patch on Istabraq.
- Total Posts 17716
My cash will be on Our Conor to show the Hurricane a clean pair of hooves at Leopardstown
Yeah, GO ON OUR CONOR MY SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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