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Name me a hurdler who would have beaten him, apart from possibly Istabraq
Seriously, should Darlan had not been killed in the 32Red hurdle, I believe he would have gone on and floored Hurricane Fly in last year’s Champion Hurdle
It’s unfortunate today’s farce resulted in Hurricane Fly breaking a record. Only "Grade 1" in name only. AP’s achievement all the more special with a special ride. The Fly would’ve got a lot more adulation with a top class performance. May even have lost today had the winning jockey’s sister not been on the second. Left it far too late. That said, it is unfair to judge Hurricane Fly on today’s race; just as it is unfair to judge others against him just because they did not win 17 Grade 1’s.
Hurricane Fly is an above average Champion Hurdler, has great attributes, genuine and consistent with a turn of foot. Certainly the best since Istabraq, but nowhere near the quality of some others over the years (including latter). "Greatest Hurdler Ever" would’ve beaten the likes of Peddlers Cross, Rock On Ruby, Zaidpour, Thousand Stars and even Solwhit by a lot further than he did. It’s a shame that he may go on the downgrade this term just when he gets some real competition. The New One, My Tent Or Yours, Our Connor and Jezki were all above average Champion Novices that have potential to give Hurricane Fly a race even if able to maintain his best. Who knows, added competition might spur him on to reach an even higher level. However, as his form stands now… Hurricane Fly would not be in my Top 10 "Greatest Ever" Hurdlers, let alone the "Greatest".
Istabraq’s bare form, beating Theatreworld in Champion Hurdles would also not read too well. Every great horse can be crabbed by horses that finished close behind. The Fly has beaten all the contenders comfortably time after time, including Quevega, who in another era would have been a Champion Hurdler. Even the so-called Golden Age of Hurlers, they beat other regualrly.
What more does a Champion have to do? Name me a hurdler who would have beaten him, apart from possibly IstabraqBe fair befair,
You did say "Greatest Hurdler EVER".
"Ever" means of all time.
Had you said "one of the Greatest Hurdlers ever", or "Greatest 2 mile hurdler of the last decade" – I could’ve agreed with you. Hence why I commented "certainly the best since Istabraq".The race that shows just how good Istabraq was is the 98 Champion Hurdle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dKQW7KP8go
Some may not believe Theatreworld much good. It’s true he never won much and imo poorly campaigned, given some difficult tasks under massive weights in handicaps. Connections seemed only interested in finishing 2nd (three times) in a Champion. But was a Cheltenham specialist – so may be we should forgive AOB. By no means an outstanding Second, Hurricane Fly beat better horses to win his two Champions, however winning distances more than made up for it. There’s plenty of room to fit other good horses between Istabraq and Theatreworld. And didn’t just beat his stable companion, he annihilated him. Theatreworld had already finished runner-up in a Champion Hurdle before Istabraq came along. Beaten 5 lengths by Make A Stand in 97; beaten 12 lengths without Istabraq coming under serious presure and eased down/Swan celebrating before the line – value for quite a bit more. In other races he’d won barely coming off the bridle, winning margins not telling the whole story.
I myself would not rank Istabraq quite as highly as Timeform’s 180 (compared to Hurricane Fly’s 173). May be something like 177.
"What more does a Champion have to do? Name me a hurdler who would have beaten him, apart from possibly Istabraq"
Well, "the Golden Era" – Monksfield, Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon, Golden Cygnet, Persian War, Comedy Of Errors, Lanzarote, Bula. There’s the Staying Hudlers – Of this generation – Big Buck’s, even Baracouda and Limestone Lad.
There are many horses the "What more does a Champion have to do"? line can be used on. Why do you believe Hurricane Fly / what performances do you believe Hurricane Fly put up – to be regarded as the "Greatest Ever Hurdler" befair? Why should he be regarded above those above in the "Greatest Ever" Stakes?
I always believed the Fly was at his worst on good ground around cheltenham but had the class to overcome it. On soft ground around leopardstown, punchestown, he was in my opinion, probably pretty close to unbeatable. Istabraq was king for me, but I wouldnt be too confident in the mud against this horse.
I cant comment on the golden era of hurdles as I was too young…not sure how anybody knows its a golden era but Im assuming it has to do with great weight carrying feats? However, the current crop of staying hurdlers are just that, staying hurdlers. You couldn’t be sure they could even win a weak champion hurdle.
The one thing that does get me animated in these kind of debates is that people tend to dismiss lifespan of the career as an essential component of being classed as great. Many horses have come and gone, burnt bright for a race, a season, maybe two and then declined. Careers at the top, spanning over half a decade are genuinely precious. It also means your guaranteed to meet some useful opposition along the way.
Im sure your aware of all the conditions, scenarios and excuses as to why most horses, even really good ones get beaten on a regular basis.Its nice when you get the ones, Kauto Star, Big Bucks, Hurricane Fly, that you can set your watch by. They deserve to be called great.
SHL
With 15k for second, amazing that no British trainers were tempted to get involved.
A joke of a G1 and could have been quite close if Marito had pinged the last.
This due to The Fly’s reputation as unbeatable. The same thing will happen with Sprinter Sacre this year.
Wrong befair, "due to" plenty of other races for British trainers to go for at home. Suspect the top two British challengers will split, My Tent Or Yours going to the Fighting Fifth and The New One for the International (Bula). Before a clash at Kempton.
Our Connor wasn’t ready and Jezki met with a late setback. Otherwise both those Irish contenders would’ve beaten The Fly on his Sunday performance. Well below his best.
Really fancied Jezki. What actually happened him?
SHL
This due to The Fly’s reputation as unbeatable.
If he has a reputation of being unbeatable it seems strange he is 6/1 for the Champion Hurdle, with a couple ahead of him and another two snapping at his heels in the betting.
I didn’t fancy The Fly at Cheltenham this year and went for Grandouet, who fell. The Fly seemed to be making hard work of it at one stage but he proved me wrong and lifted the crown again.
For sure, he’s an admirable horse but I couldn’t call him The Greatest. Every now and then there is a changing of the guard at the top of a division in Racing and this year looks ripe for some new kids on the block to move up the elevator of Champion Hurdle Towers. It may not necessarily be
The
New One, but I’m convinced there will be
A
New One.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I have read or heard the owner’s assessment of Our Commor’s recent injury and I await with some trepidation for the next report.Connections (owner) don’t seem to know what is wrong with him.
It felt wrong to me, Kauto’s record going when he’d had to fight so hard for so many of his victories [and made my heart soar in a way that HF victory never has]. And I was never a huge Kauto fan until his last King George, at which point all I wanted was for him to retire in one piece. I know it’s been said before but it’s something I have to agree with, but sometimes you only realise how great a horse is when they get beat sometimes.
Gingertipster
said –
"What more does a Champion have to do? Name me a hurdler who would have beaten him, apart from possibly Istabraq"
Well, "the Golden Era" – Monksfield, Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon, Golden Cygnet, Persian War, Comedy Of Errors, Lanzarote, Bula. There’s the Staying Hudlers – Of this generation – Big Buck’s, even Baracouda and Limestone Lad.
______________
Then add See You Then, Alderbrook, and as recently as last season, Darlan, to that list.
HF feels like a low 170s horse to me, but it’s not his fault there’s not been much to beat up to now. I’ll not be too hasty in labelling the upcoming CH a vintage renewal, because we always hear that around this time of year, don’t we ?
Ah, the anticipation…..
Gingertipster
said –
"What more does a Champion have to do? Name me a hurdler who would have beaten him, apart from possibly Istabraq"
Well, "the Golden Era" – Monksfield, Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon, Golden Cygnet, Persian War, Comedy Of Errors, Lanzarote, Bula. There’s the Staying Hudlers – Of this generation – Big Buck’s, even Baracouda and Limestone Lad.
______________
Then add See You Then, Alderbrook, and as recently as last season, Darlan, to that list.
HF feels like a low 170s horse to me, but it’s not his fault there’s not been much to beat up to now. I’ll not be too hasty in labelling the upcoming CH a vintage renewal, because we always hear that around this time of year, don’t we ?
Ah, the anticipation…..
THe fly did beat up horses that have won Supreme novices, French Champion hurdle, Aintree Hurdle winner, an English Champion hurdle winner etc etc. Form lines are strong.
For some reason, and I am as guilty as anyone, we tend to question any horses that runs up a long sequence and start questioning what they beat. People did it with Kauto Star, with Best Mate etc etc.
Conversely, we love throwing garlands at novices like My Tent or Yours, Darlan and The New One. Two of those failed to win the Supreme (Darlan couldnt win a bad one). The New One has great potential but if he is so exceptional, why couldnt he take Zarkandar at Aintree?? Especially since he had the flys regular punch bag, Thousand Stars on his tail.
Im just saying, the psychology at how we look at these races and how they make us feel is interesting. We almost find it easier to believe in the potential of some over the reality of others.
SHL
Terrific post Mr. Lewis. Darlan better than The Fly? Righto. Why, because he is dead? I’m struggling to find any rationale so it must be sentiment, and misplaced sentiment at that.
Come on FFS. Remember what The Fly did to Go Native every time they met? And as Harry says his regular punching bag Thousand Stars, not to mention a certain Solwhit. The form and consistency look absolutely spectacular to me.
Each to your own opinions and all that, but I’ve read so far on this thread that a peak Fly wouldn’t get placed among this years 2 milers, and would have been stuffed by bloody Darlan!
I don’t think Hurricane Fly has ever been seen at his best at Cheltenham, but likewise may of the British horses who’ve taken him on in Ireland have run below par.
If we leave aside his seasonal debuts, on soft ground in Ireland he’s near impossible to beat, as mentioned above by another poster.
The list of high class hurdlers he’s kicked into touch is a long one:
Go Native
Solwhit
Voler La Vedette
Medermit
Thousand Stars
Sublimity
Oscar Whisky
Menorah
Binocular
Unaccompanied
Rock On RubyHe’s trounced all of the above at one stage or another and at his best nothing has been able get near him over the past half decade. He’s only been beaten once in Ireland (on his seasonal reappearance). People crabbed his form beating Solwhit, citing that horses poor run in the Champion Hurdle, even though it is common knowledge he was a sick horse.
Between getting turned over at odds of 1/3 in December ’08 and being out for almost two years through injury, Solwhit ran in 13 hurdle races, 12 of which were Grade 1’s. He was beaten by Hurricane Fly in four of those races. The only times he was beaten apart from that were in a slowly run Fighting Fifth and when sick in a Champion Hurdle.
The form with Thousand Stars has regularly been crabbed, but he’s been just touched off in two Aintree Hurdles and finished on the heels of Zarkandar and The New One in another. He usually finishes 5-10 lengths behind Hurricane Fly but on most of those occasions Hurricane Fly has won on the bridle, with plenty in hand.
It may be possible Hurricane Fly is on the downgrade, but I’m not writing him off just yet. He looked like he was there for the taking when scrambling home from Zaidpour after the Champion Hurdle he was beaten in and look what he’s done since. It will be a pity if he is in decline because last year’s novices are a very exciting bunch.
I couldn’t say whether he’s the best over or in the top 20 best ever or anything like that but everyone has their own preferences but I for one award extra kudos for horses who’ve shown exceptional longevity such as Hurricane Fly and Kauto Star.
He’s the best two mile hurdler I’ve seen without a shadow of a doubt, but I’m relatively new to racing in the grand scheme of things having only began following racing closely in 2006, and therefore I’m not in the best position to comment on the historical pecking order of the best hurdlers.
We should enjoy him while we can because we mightn’t see another like him for some time. Already looking forward to Leopardstown at Christmas
I don’t think Hurricane Fly has ever been seen at his best at Cheltenham, but likewise may of the British horses who’ve taken him on in Ireland have run below par.
If we leave aside his seasonal debuts, on soft ground in Ireland he’s near impossible to beat, as mentioned above by another poster.
The list of high class hurdlers he’s kicked into touch is a long one:
Go Native
Solwhit
Voler La Vedette
Medermit
Thousand Stars
Sublimity
Oscar Whisky
Menorah
Binocular
Unaccompanied
Rock On RubyHe’s trounced all of the above at one stage or another and at his best nothing has been able get near him over the past half decade. He’s only been beaten once in Ireland (on his seasonal reappearance). People crabbed his form beating Solwhit, citing that horses poor run in the Champion Hurdle, even though it is common knowledge he was a sick horse.
Between getting turned over at odds of 1/3 in December ’08 and being out for almost two years through injury, Solwhit ran in 13 hurdle races, 12 of which were Grade 1’s. He was beaten by Hurricane Fly in four of those races. The only times he was beaten apart from that were in a slowly run Fighting Fifth and when sick in a Champion Hurdle.
The form with Thousand Stars has regularly been crabbed, but he’s been just touched off in two Aintree Hurdles and finished on the heels of Zarkandar and The New One in another. He usually finishes 5-10 lengths behind Hurricane Fly but on most of those occasions Hurricane Fly has won on the bridle, with plenty in hand.
It may be possible Hurricane Fly is on the downgrade, but I’m not writing him off just yet. He looked like he was there for the taking when scrambling home from Zaidpour after the Champion Hurdle he was beaten in and look what he’s done since. It will be a pity if he is in decline because last year’s novices are a very exciting bunch.
I couldn’t say whether he’s the best over or in the top 20 best ever or anything like that but everyone has their own preferences but I for one award extra kudos for horses who’ve shown exceptional longevity such as Hurricane Fly and Kauto Star.
He’s the best two mile hurdler I’ve seen without a shadow of a doubt, but I’m relatively new to racing in the grand scheme of things having only began following racing closely in 2006, and therefore I’m not in the best position to comment on the historical pecking order of the best hurdlers.
We should enjoy him while we can because we mightn’t see another like him for some time. Already looking forward to Leopardstown at Christmas
All good points – but Darlan only got beat a couple of lengths by Cinders and Ashes. Close call.
Hurricane Fly – a very good horse …yes.
Greatest hurdler ever … absolutely not, in my opinion.
There are half a dozen better within one decade alone, the seventies.
Greatest ever in my view, Night Nurse.
Second best Persian War.
Golden Cygnet was sadly the greatest unfulfilled potential, bless him.Why on earth would anyone talk Darlan up
because he’s dead?
I gave him a big chance of winning last year’s CH , he was shortish in most lists too.
And I’m sorry, no offence meant, but that list of ‘high-class hurdlers’ that HF has beaten…….I think it makes my point quite nicely.
And I’m sorry, no offence meant, but that list of ‘high-class hurdlers’ that HF has beaten…….I think it makes my point quite nicely.
None taken
The likes of Go Native and Solwhit were/are in my opinion top class, and he regularly trounced them. The rest were all talked of as Champion Hurdle candidates at one stage or another and were high class.
Thing is, take Rock On Ruby.
He’s won and placed in a CH, second in a strong Neptune (why I backed him)….so fair play to him.
But he’s ever so ordinary, isn’t he ? He’s rated 170-ish, but it feels as if his rating has been tinkered with to fit in the jigsaw. To me, anyway.
Thing is, take Rock On Ruby.
He’s won and placed in a CH, so fair play to him.
But he’s ever so ordinary, isn’t he ?
He is if it suits your argument
SHL
Who can blame trainers for ducking any hot favourite Mullins sends out? The man is dominating Irish racing in the way Arkle used to. At least a separate handicap could be set up for the big horse. Mullins’ Irish rivals will be cursing the fact that you cannot handicap trainers.
HF looked to have as much appetite for it today as ever. I can only assume he was nowhere near peak fitness. Even at his best, he’ll struggle to place in what promises to be the hottest Champion since the days of Night Nurse
There were horses in boxes over the weekend that could have been earning £12,000 instead and might even have won.
Owners and trainers consistently complain about the lack of funding and yet we repeatedly see two, three or four runner races for decent prize money.
Most of the other trainers seem to have difficulty getting their horses to run well for two or more successive races. Mullins had more winners over the weekend than Meade’s had since the start of October.
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