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An earlier thread made me wonder – does running a horse when not fully fit (a subjective term, maybe, but presumably you can only keep a horse at peak fitness for short periods at a time) or running a horse over a clearly wrong (whatever that means) trip count as not running it on its merits,even where the jockey has extracted the maximum performanc from the horse in those circumstances?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running a horse not at peak fitness. Some horses need a run or two to reach their peak and trainers often leave "something to work on" if the race is not their main target. However, trainers are not allowed to run a horse that it is so unfit to be dangerous.
There is also nothing wrong with running over a trip thought not its ideal. Otherwise nobody would find out if a horse stayed or had the speed for a trip.
As long as a horse (given prevailing conditions, trip, going, track, pace etc) is "trying to win the race", it can run in any race connections like.
Then there are connections that appear not to want to win a race, such as those of Noble Prince. It’s as if they want to protect the horse’s handicap mark. Don’t they realise the Ryanair is a Grade 1?
Value Is EverythingAnd that same phrase is what has kept Ferdy Murphy out of prison, allegedly.
Ginger – extraordinary, isn’t it? God only knows what those connections are doing. I mean fair enough, Big Zeb was 10 going on 11, but do you really need to try twice to beat him whilst missing out the John Durkan after it was clear in November that he wasn’t going to beat him? And then they prepped him over the same trip (and lost) on heavy ground (and then bemoaned the ground afterwards) when there are 2 races of the same Grade over 2m 4f and 2m 5f over the coming weeks! Just amazing. I mean I don’t want to see any horse fail at the Cheltenham Festival. I watched a replay of Sizing Europe winning the Queen Mum 2 days ago & had a few tears in my eyes whilst Alan Potts was delivering an emotional speech, but God I hope the connections of Noble Prince don’t get rewarded at Cheltenham for what has been the most stupid, pointless, unrewarding campaign for a second season chaser in the history of horse racing.
This is a theme that crops up every now and again on here and I daresay other forums. I always find it fascinating to read opinions on the matter.
I’m quite at ease with a trainer running a horse over the wrong trip, wrong ground, not 100% fit etc. Crikey, a guy’s got to make a living, and if a trainer needs to get the money on to help pay his bills (and the wages of his staff) then keeping something up his sleeve to win a few bob is okay by me. Not every trainer is backed by wealthy arab owners or reliable payers; not every yard is bristling with animals of group class.
Just as there’s a skill in preparing a top-class animal to maximise his race-winning (and maybe subsequent stud) potential, so there’s an art in maximising the returns from an animal that is somewhat less gifted. Maybe some trainers who regularly land GP1 races would be useless at equalling the acheivements of lesser lights who manage to coax a few wins out of some glorified donkey crock. Who’s the better trainer?
Okay, I won’t be smiling if I’ve done my dosh on a horse that wasn’t up for it, but nobody forced me to back the horse did they?
It’s not as though the name of a trainer is kept secret is it, or the pedigree of the horse? Yet if I still choose to back it, that’s down to me.
Why, if I was REALLY serious, I could actually go along to the track and study the animal going around the pre-parade ring and make my own assessment as to whether the horse was fit enough to do itself justice. I’m told some people actually do this!
Surely no one believes or expects the training fraternity to be wholly comprised of whiter-than-white "Stepford Trainers" do they?
The image of racing does not necessarily suffer from having some trainers sail close to the wind re. their nags always trying to win. Many would say such goings-on make the game more interesting; I’m one such. If people don’t want such arcane factors in their pastimes, they should stick to minesweepers or invaders on their PCs.
Mind you a trainer stopping his nag from winning in order to lay it on the exchanges – now that’s another matter.A good example of non-trying this season is De Boitron. I don’t care what price he is, back him for the Grand Annual. The handicapper basically gave Ferdy a licence to do what he’s doing after he dropped him 13lbs in 2 runs. What did he think was going to happen? Festival banker.
What exactly is Ferdy Murphy doing with De Boitron. He is quite clearly a good ground, spring horse. To suggest that he’s been a non trier this season is ludicrous. Yes, he has raced twice on good ground this season but that has been on a mark 11lb higher than his highest winning rating so it’s not suprising he hasn’t won. Are you actually suggesting he should only race after February on good ground ? Running a horse when conditions aren’t right for it doesn’t mean it’s a non trier. Since he last won in April 2010 his handicap mark has risen 3 times from 126 to a high of 137 and only dropped once, that was to 135 for his race today. Hardly eveidence of a non trier.
There is a difference between being "fit" and being "racing fit".When "racing fit" a horse will fight out a finish. When "fit" he may not.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Lambro is an example this season. Dropped back to a stiff two miles last time he could quite easily end up in the four miler at Cheltenham.
What exactly is Ferdy Murphy doing with De Boitron. He is quite clearly a good ground, spring horse. To suggest that he’s been a non trier this season is ludicrous. Yes, he has raced twice on good ground this season but that has been on a mark 11lb higher than his highest winning rating so it’s not suprising he hasn’t won. Are you actually suggesting he should only race after February on good ground ? Running a horse when conditions aren’t right for it doesn’t mean it’s a non trier. Since he last won in April 2010 his handicap mark has risen 3 times from 126 to a high of 137 and only dropped once, that was to 135 for his race today. Hardly eveidence of a non trier.
LOL not a non-trier. LOL LOL LOL. LOL!!!!!! My lord. My good lord. I’m sorry to use this word, I really am but I think you’re extremely naive if you think that. How else is Ferdy going to get his mark down to what it was in the Grand Annual last year? By paying off the BHA handicapper? I suppose you think Divers’ prep race for the Paddy Power was his running too?
What is Ferdy Murphy going to do with a chaser rated 150? Run him off top weights in handicaps? Run him in Graded chases & hope he picks up a bit of prize money along the way? He’s stuck him way out the back in 2 handicap chases and as a consequence his rating has dropped by 11lbs to 2lbs below what it was in last year’s Grand Annual. And after today it’ll probably be a stone or more less than his rating at the beginning of the season. All because he’s a spring horse?
Are you seriously going to tell me that being beaten 47 lengths over 2m on good ground by Tartan Snow, a 11yo horse who’s won over 2m 7f on heavy ground, whose highest winning mark is 115, is ‘trying to obtain the best possible placing’? Tartan Snow finished 1 length behind the Arkle & Ryanair runner-up Kalahari King in the same race, admittedly getting 2 stone. Also his running? That’d make Kalahari King a 143-rated performer.
Or what about being beaten 48 lengths by Torphichen over 2m 1f off level weights? Being beaten 180 lengths with only 4 horses behind him in his opening 3 starts of the campaign and you think he’s out there to win his races. Incredible. Do you know who Ferdy Murphy is? Can’t believe I’m having this conversation.
I also cannot believe you’ve said that he’s a spring horse. Every bloody Ferdy Murphy is a spring horse! He spends the first 5 months of the racing getting the horses false ratings with which he can run in the big handicaps while landing gambles & picking up good prize money. Then after that has happened & they have handicap marks that represent their true ability, he starts all over again.
What about Poker de Sivola? Beggars Cap? Divers? From his last 15 runners before today, he’s had 1 winner. 3 pulled up. Of the other 11, they’ve been beaten by a total of 326 lengths. Also spring horses? I mean just look at Beggars Cap’s record for last season. Wins off 130 by 3L on the final start of the 09/10 season in May. Gets beaten 190 lengths and fails to complete twice over the course of his next 7 starts.
As a result he ends the season rated 127 and wins at the Scottish Grand National meeting, his favourite meeting of the year, at a price of 14/1.
If I had a handicapper, there is only one place he’d go.
De Boitron has never been rated 150.
The Racing Post put that rating in the paper because he ran from out of the handicap at Cheltenham on 13th April 2011, but his official rating has never been higher than 137It is now 135 and will probably drop 2 or 3 for today at Doncaster.
His highest ever winning mark is 126.I will still back him at Cheltenham, but he may go in a 2m4 or 2m5 handicap not necessarily the Grand Annual
Of course running a horse to make the most of the handicap system is not a crime. It appears though Zarkava,that you are accusing Murphy (and by implication his jockey) of deliberately stopping the horse. Now if you have the evidence of that why not just report it, with your evidence, to the BHA on their hotline ? The other alternative is to keep quiet and make use of your shrewd observation by backing them when you know they are going to win and retire on the fortune you will make.
This is true and an oversight on my part but everything else I said is still true
Grand Annual BANKER.Ferdy Murphy is far from being my favourite trainer. Do feel sometimes questions should be asked as to whether horses are fit enough to run first time out. Can seemingly run horses as if only having eyes for a future big race. So I know where Zark is coming from. Have had my suspicions over the years, but that is all they are. Should be careful of what we say about a particular horse, as sometimes there are good reasons for good and poor form.
Some stables are naturally in good form at one time of year and in poor form at another. Often having no say in when these begin and end; otherwise every trainer would make sure their team is in fine form come mid-March. Ferdy probably makes use of knowing his string is primarily best in Spring and not so good in Winter.
Whether connections of De Boitron have been deliberately losing, I doubt it. Said to have had a wind oporation in the past and there
might
be something physically wrong.
Value Is EverythingWell we’ll know after Ayr and Perth in April. If De Boitron doesn’t run a big race in March, that’ll be where he’s headed and if he doesn’t win there, I’ll happily say I’m sorry and I was wrong.
Ferdy is a master at getting one down the handicap and on a mark he feels the horse can be competitive off. He plays the game to his benefit and most of the time his intentions are pretty clear.
I find the best thing to do is scratch his runners from my analysis unless the yard stats indicate they are in good form or he runs one in a big money race. Trying to second guess him at other times of the year, aside from spring, is not worth the time and energy and likely to be loss making in any case.
Grand Annual BANKER.
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