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I find this a strange phenomena and I’d appreciate it if anyone could explain to me why this should be, that some horses just keep winning at the same track.   Any special memories of any in particular ?<br>here are a couple of my old favourites, fairly recent:
Fatehalkhair – Sedgefield –  13 wins, 3 seconds and 1 third from 25 starts.
The Bajan Bandit – Ayr – 7 from 8 starts.   Carlisle – 3 from 3.
post war, I wonder if that statistic for ‘old Fatty’ is a record.<br>thanks for any replies.<br>
two obvious things really
left/right bias. i think that counts for more than we sometimes assume
some horses are far better if they barely have to travel. Peaty Sandy is a good example
could also be partly self perpetuating with trainers assuming (maybe rightly) that a horse is best suited by certain courses and targeting their regime around this
A big factor in the horses for courses argument is travelling distance from the stable and there are lots of examples of this over the years. Some horses simply don’t like travelling and especially if an overnight stay at the course is involved. Apart from this, the physical layout of some tracks certainly is a big part in playing to a horses preferences.
When I started developing my ratings database I had all tracks categorised in groups based on the layout, undulations and stamina requirements. This has now evolved into a similarity factor between courses. My system compares the similarity factor of the course where the horses put up its best performance to the course for the races being assessed. Another little bit in the jigsaw of the horse racing challenge!<br>
Quote: from clivex on 11:02 pm on Feb. 25, 2007
could also be partly self perpetuating with trainers assuming (maybe rightly) that a horse is best suited by certain courses and targeting their regime around this<br>
…this is what I was wondering too that it’s more to do with the astuteness of it’s connections but following on from the earlier Anthromorphism thread, I’d like to think the horse has some kind of emotion which enables it to think something like "Oh I like it round here, I’ll put my best foot forward"…..it does seem strange at times.
Wallace:
Has your similarity factor system shown any results as yet to prove this point or have you not been studying it long enough.  Which 2 jumps tracks would you say are most similar for this purpose.  Thanks.
kempton and ascot ?
Newbury and Haydock?
I’d like to think the horse has some kind of emotion which enables it to think something like "Oh I like it round here, I’ll put my best foot forward"…..it does seem strange at times.
The way Beef or Salmon played up before last years gold cup seemed to indicate taht he was almost spooked by the place. There could be something in that.
There are many factors for "Horses For Courses"
Heres a few more
Many horses who stable overnight do actual sulk, Take Monets  Garden prime example and well spotted by his trainer,
9 times out of 10 horses travelling get exited, In fact its starts many many hours before that, they start getting exited when they are being platted up, thats why some trainers wait till they get to the course to do it not at home. Horses actually can tell in the yard when they are going racing that day, they know because the routine from first thing in the morning is different, they know they are going racing, they get nervous and actually expend quite alot of energy. It actually can just take the edge of them. So the longer they travel the more energy the use.
Many tracks were actually measured many many years ago, and actually have not been measured since, mostly national hunt i hasten to add, alterations to running rails etc etc I would bet some 2, 2.4,3.1 distances actually arnt
Undulations pay a major part also, like you just cannot compare Kempton with the likes of Leicester
<br>Horses stride pattern differs immensely long striding horses are just not suited to tight tracks such as fontwell, folkestone,plumpton etc, yet a short coupled horse will handle them much better, because they are far more balanced.
Some courses will suit front running horses, rather than hold up horses, again mainly due to the fact that undulating courses ,especially those with downhills as well ,make its far more difficult to make up ground and keep the horse balanced
Thats just a few that springs to mind<br>
On the flat, I would pair Chester and Wolverhampton.
Over jumps, Sandown and Wincanton seem fairly close.
Might be worth having a look at the "Do horses have memories?" thread from last week as well…
Carlisle and Towcester.
Yarmouth and Nottingham.
Cartmel and my back yard. :biggrin:
Returning to a previous point, yep, I would have thought geographical convenience was certainly a determining factor in the multiple wins at Fakenham for the likes of Prince Carlton, Perroquet and most recently New Perk over the years. Ditto Walcot Lad (who could quite happily win elsewhere, and did) at Fontwell.
Conversely, whilst the track is obviously very close to home, Peter’s Imp really does seem pounds better at Cartmel than anywhere else, and there have been other animals trained further afield that also act at one track notably better – Fakenham isn’t exactly on Tony Blackmore’s doorstep, yet his Cool Roxy can’t get enough of the place.
Some horses get dubbed "course specialists" simply because they keep getting found races at courses that their connections like, never mind them. Dai Burchell found lots of races for Flahive’s First and Britannia Mills at Cartmel over the years, but it’s not as if those horses went up there in isolation – the trainer seems to enjoy the day out at the Lakeland track (who wouldn’t!) and is always amply represented. Ditto Jeff and the late Gus Sadik, who love(d) the place so much you suspect they’d always send a van load to race there, whether or not Green Go had turned out to be capable of winning.
Jeremy<br>(graysonscolumn)<br>
(Edited by graysonscolumn at 3:46 pm on Feb. 26, 2007)
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Quote: from Wayward Lad on 11:11 am on Feb. 26, 2007
… .they know they are going racing, they get nervous and actually expend quite alot of energy. It actually can just take the edge of them. So the longer they travel the more energy the use.
…that’s all very interesting Wayward Lad and thank you for your input.  Just to follow on from that point and conversely, it reminds me of Dahlia back in the 70’s who excelled when going abroad but wasn’t much good down the road around Paris.  So travel seems to suit a few of them. ÂÂÂ
Graysonscolumn and others,  I take your points but can anyone explain why Red Rum’s form around the Grand National course was markedly different to anywhere else.   One so often hears commentators say "he loves it round here" and it makes me think there must have been some truth in it with that horse in particular and there must be others.  I can’t believe it can all be coincidental.
i think its more to do with a course suiting a horse, rather than a horse mentally thinking this is a track i like. if this was the case it would be true that horses dont try as hard as they do at certain tracks, which in my opinion is not true. <br>i think the gradient of the ground, the soil type, sequence of jumps, left handed, right handed, stiff track, galloping tracks etc suit different types. if a course meets exactly what the brings out the best in a particular horse, its going to do well.<br>i also think the time of the season has a big input in how a horse runs, and as races are in a strict annual order, certain races at certain tracks with certain conditions will suit a horse more than its competitors, so i is likely to run well there again the next year possibly?<br>i hope some of that makes sence!!!
Quote: from Lovely Lady on 4:26 pm on Feb. 26, 2007[br]
<br>  I take your points but can anyone explain why Red Rum’s form around the Grand National course was markedly different to anywhere else.   One so often hears commentators say "he loves it round here" and it makes me think there must have been some truth in it with that horse in particular and there must be others.  I can’t believe it can all be coincidental.<br>
<br>I think Red Rum was unique around Aintree, at first just another race but beating Crisp transformed him and it was his middy from then on. With the fences being completely different he just thrived on it and knew exactly where he was. Did you see him later years parading, bucking and kicking to get going and terribly frustrated he couldn’t.
Quote: from non vintage on 12:22 pm on Feb. 26, 2007
Might be worth having a look at the "Do horses have memories?" thread from last week as well…<br>
…I’ve just noticed that, didn’t realise it was there – thank you – now going to have a read. Some points already covered on there I think.
Yeats,<br>yes I remember that about Red Rum and agree with what you have to say but surely then applying that to RR can apply to any other horse too, so there must be something in it.
dave22,<br>yes you make sense – good points but still feel a kind of Red Rum effect must affect some of them, some of the time, if you know what I mean.:)
cheers,
Reading this with interest , but heres another quest on the same theme, how can a trainer run a horse on all tracks to see what he likes….its not done by experiment its done by constitution and knowing what horses like what
similar courses<br>==========
Sandown & Ascot<br>Kempton & Wincanton<br>Doncaster & Newbury<br>Towcester & Carlisle<br>Stratford & Newton Abbot<br>Hereford & Huntingdon
byefrom<br>carlisle<br>
Hi clivex
have they changed Kempton. Much.
I have got it as the following……
Kempton<br>Flat,1m5+,Average turns,Diff. Fences,G1,Flat runin 175y
Ascot<br>Undu,1m6f,Easy turns,Diff. Fences,G3,Uphill runin 240y
Sandown<br>Flat,1m5f,Easy turns,Diff. Fences,G2,Uphill runin 300y
G1=slightly Galloping<br>G2=Galloping<br>G3=Very Galloping
byefrom<br>carlisle<br>
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