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When Where Or When out sprinted Hawk Wing in the QE2 off a slow pace(no one followed Sholokhov) there were few people stating that Hawk Wing was not suited by the race.<br> What your times suggest is that mid way through the race Where Or When could not keep up with Hawk Wing……….in other words not fast enough…….not good enough simple as that.
"The 11-lengths came about partly because Where Or When was struggling" simply because Hawk Wing pulverised him through out the race. Some say he got an easy lead…….well it wasnt that easy. Yeah sure he was’nt harassed for the lead but the runner up only set 1 lenght off him at most through out the race. Connections of WOW looking forward to meeting Hawk Wing on faster ground,well to be brutally honest shurely Hawk Wings cruising speed with be an even greater weapon on that surface?
Basically what your time figures are saying(and I will look forward to James W’s piece tomorrow) is that at no stage a QE2 winner and a Breeders Cup winner could keep up with Hawk Wing. Thats fine by me.
Flagship,
Not saying he is the greatest ever, but to be honest never heard ANYBODY saying that!!!!!!! You say he has put in ONE good performance! What about the National Stakes as a two year old, he broke the course record for 7F, for any age! Would you not count that as a good performance?
Time will tell, of course, but in my view, the others – apart from WoW – ran badly because they were beaten and demoralised by a very superior horse who didn’t need to come back to his field, but laughed at them. Actually, I was astonished at how well WoW ran, though I’d noticed the relative confidence behind him in the betting.
I can’t go along with John Randall’s view, either, Aidan. <br>He cited only Turtle Island over a mile, among his wide-margin winners. All the rest were middle-distance and Gold Cup horses. And I don’t believe TI was built as robustly as HW. The shorter the distance, surely, the less likelihood of athletes of any species winning against their peers by a wide margin.
"I agree with you he looks likely to join the pantheon of greats", you opined, Flagship. That’s all you needed to say, old chap. Nobody would foolish enough to discount unforeseeable problems.
<br>flagship
just to settle the point in your post 11.39
you certainly have misinterpreted the tone of my post my opening was meant as a touch of light humour nothing more.
it may be unwise to call him the best ever but surely you will agree that there has not been many that are better. i cant recall a similar performence on turf since perhaps el gran senor in the 2000gns.
about repeating it he may or may not but surely it cannot be expected of any horse to put up a whole string of performences like this especially if they are going to keep him on the go until the breeders cup even brigadier gerard was more impressive in some races than others
Flagship,
He holds the record for all age horses for 7F at the Curragh, not just 2 year olds. So I would rate that as a good performance.
I see a lot of rubbish trotted out here. That Hawk Wing needs to reproduce this effort to be considered great. That sort of tripe.
As JJD said, no one on here has said that he is the greatest horse ever. What I am saying is that it was one of the greatest performances ever seen on a racecourse.
What p**s
es me off, is the people that said that it was only a trick of the eye that he came so close to the ROG. Those were saying that for all his flashy brialliance, his unusual head carraige, and as has been mentioned here, he didnt win that often. Those who supported him were carried away with the hype. Ye, he looks good but what has he actually done.TEchnically he ran the best race seen in the british isles for at least a decade. Any marks under 140 are conservative and basicially ignore the tried and trusted handicapping standards evolved over teh past century.
Those who believe that teh popular opinion is always wrong, who shouted for proof in teh form book to back up the hype, got it in no uncertain terms last saturday, and instead of seeing it for what it was – an oustanding performance by a thoroughbred – use excuses like the wet grass, all horses running a stone below form.
Not a champion. In hindsight leave HIgh chapparal out of the derby, HW wins by the 12l. We would be proclaiming a horse to stand alongside seabird, teh brigadier, tudor minstrel and all the other revered names.
For a horse with the speed he shown on saturday to get that close to a strong staying Breeders cup winner on ground that it is obvious now is not his optimum in last years derby was arguably as meritorious an effort as last saturday. It was only Moon Ballad in the distance behind.
Tillerman, Bahamian pirate, continent. I dont think that HW should be frightened of them over 6f.
As i said, like carvills hill and arazi – possibly the two greatest performance that I have seen live – it will be great if he could reproduce a similar hanicapping figure in the future. If he doesnt, it shouldnt take away from the performance he put in on Saturday.
<br>the official handicapper according to the rp has him as the 2nd best horse since 1986 to dancing brave and the best miler since 1984 to el gran senor
Best in twenty years – you might only see five of those in your lifetime if you are lucky. Enjoy it for what it is and not decry for wet grass, camera angles, and pointless sectional examinations.
I just think the toughest problem about handicapping HW’s performance is that if handicappers actually had to stick to their formulas, they would nearly have to throw the handicap book out the window, and start again. I think there’s a real danger about being conservative about the performance.
I must admit I saw an amazing feat by a racehorse in the Juddemonte as the times below show.
1998 Juddmonte Cape Cross time 1m 35.17s fast by 3.17s<br>2003 juddmonte Hawk Wing time 1m 36.78s fast by 1.72s
I must belatedly put Cape crosses performance down as the best, since a bit was put in a horses mouth. There again he was not a HYPE horse, but a second string who ran his best one day.
of course Dungheap. Cape Cross should be rated in the mid 140s on the back on that evidence.
<br>dungheap
a did cape cross not have the run of the race
bwas there any credible opposition that day
did he have any performences in his profile that suggest<br> that the awnser to a is yes and the awnser to b is no
<br>as a guide cape cross when setting his record beat mainly handicappers and exposed grp 2 horses with air express running one fo his stinkers
and about 9l covered the whole field
Prince regent<br> 1 Cape Cross made virtually all, clear 3f out, ridden over 2f out, ran on well<br>1 Hawk Wing made all, driven clear approaching final 2f, carried head high, edged right inside final furlong, unchallenged.<br>The race write ups, no negatives in cape crosses<br>Sounds like Cape cross had a bit of a race, as his contemperies were closer, IMO the horses behind Hawk wing did not run to their form, if they had have and Hawk Wing had have been even better, then I would also be crowing his name from the roof tops, but they di d not neither did he. <br> I personally Titanic’ed Domedriver and layed him substancially on Betfair. I did not see the wonder horse maxed by his supporters. hype hype hype.
Thats fine Ian. I wouldnt back any horse at 4/11. Ive seen too many break down on the course to say that any horse is a certainty. If HW runs to a handicap mark that he ran to on Saturday, seriously, the oppostion may as well stay at home. Those involved in racing know that it is impossible to say what HW will run to next time out. ROG is considered great by many becase he won 7gp1s on the bounce. He never put up a performance nearly as good as HW did on saturday. If he never ran again we should all consider ourselves privileged to have seen that performance. (Like secretariats belmont, arazi juvenile (undermine it as much as you want, formwise it was as spectacular as it looked), carvills hills welsh national, or more personally dayjur’s nunthorpe.)
It is all about opinions, i hate it when people use that line on forums. A bit of respect please. I understand that people have different opinions. I also think i have the right to say that some to me are rubbish, like that HW has to reproduce that effort to be considered great.
Who judges teh brigadier on his defeat by Roberto? Would he have been placed in a derby at 3?
so dungheap, you are actually crabbing HW for winning by so far. He would have been better in your eyes if he beat WOW by a length, DD by a half, with reeel buddy a furhter neck back.
COme on people, this is surely rubbish…
We are comparing HW to CC and Turtle island. Again, if its not rubbish its a simple misundertanding of how racing functions. If cape cross beats a Breeders cup winner by over 20l then there is some arguement to ahve.
Morgans <br>You missed the point totally!!<br>Hawk Wing had no race, on saturday. The rest of the field did not run up to their best, therefore HAWK WING WAS FLATTERED. His time on the day was good, although the race before returned a fast time as well.<br>My remarks are not aimed at the horse, but the HYPE surrounding him. <br>This race has only added to it IMO, where it is NOT justified.<br>
Dungheap,
I don’t understand your reasoning here, you keep going on about hype? What do mean? The horse did more than what was expected of him on Saturday, he beat a good field of horses, demolished them.
Surely not every horse was below par on Saturday of thats what your suggesting, I don’t remember any trainer commenting on their horses being below par. You must have missed Terry Mills being interviewed prior to the race, where he oozed with confidence in the state of WOW.
Hawk Wing was fantastic on Saturday, plain and simple. He delivered on his promise finally, and he is a top class flat horse. To say he was flaterred is quite ridiculous IMO.
JohnJ
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