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“In winning the Hardwicke Stakes at Royal Ascot so impressively and then producing one of the greatest performances of all time to win the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes by 11 lengths in record time, Harbinger has confirmed himself as one of the all time greats.”
Harry Herbert comments above following Harbinger’s injury induced retirement.
Did he really do enough to be considered an ‘all time great’ or was he a one race wonder?
His performance at Ascot was very, very good but I’d have liked to see him repeat it (in the way that Sea The Stars, Zenyatta, Goldikova have done) before elevating to the status of all time great.
Definitely not. I’m a relative infant on TRF when it comes to having witnessed great racehorses but for me Harbinger isn’t in that same category of greatness as Sea The Stars is.
Sea The Stars won on flat tracks, stiff tracks, straight tracks, left handed tracks, right handed tracks, tracks with long straights, tracks with short straights, off a quick pace, off a slow pace, over a mile, ten furlongs, a mile and a half and he beat top notch Group 1 horses month after month on those tracks with consummate ease in the main. True greatness.
Understandably Harry’s being a bit sentimental and perhaps time would have proved him correct, but Harbinger an all time great on the back of a single Group 1 at Ascot…no way.
"Greatness" is in the eye of the beholder but clearly involves more than just supreme athletic ability, expressed once or infrequently, where most people are concerned.
It is the failure to grasp the difference between a great performance and a great horse (whatever that is) that is at the root of much of the misunderstanding concerning ratings.
You’ve got to remember that Harry Herbert would have made these comments with a lot of emotion involved, and it’s easy to get carried away under such circumstances.
He may not have been one of the all-time greats Corm but the question about him being a one-race wonder is a little unfair. I would give such a tag to a horse that has produced one brilliant performance but then subsequently couldn’t reapeat it – hence, a one-race wonder. As Harbinger never got the chance to show us the definitive answer, I certainly won’t be labelling him as such and hope that others don’t either.
Well, his King George performance was greater than any performance by any other ‘great’ I’ve ever seen.
There’s no real reason to think the horse would have failed to produce that mark again on another course, and the argument that he hadn’t yet reached his peak is a more than valid one, so I’ve no reservations at all about putting him up there with the very, very best – Sea the Stars included.
The very essence of that performance said more to me than an eleven length beating of a top class field. I believe we’ve been robbed of witnessing a genuine phenomenon.
That’s the thing though Onthesteal, the field was far from top class (imo of course). Cape Blanco…average, Youmzain…not the first time he’s been stuffed at Ascot.
Great performance, yes.
Great horse, alas we’ll never know.
To be a great, you need to have both ability and luck to get the oppertunity to show it. Im afraid that the luck wasnt there.
SHL
- Total Posts 17716
What Makes A Great Horse?
Good question, it’s all about who you beat, how you beat them and more importantly how consistantly you achieve this.
We’ll never know who good Harbinger would of been but he’s certianly not a horse i’ll ever remember as great, just a horse who excited millions around the world with a performance of equine quallity.
- Total Posts 17716
No doubting it Harbinger was a very good horse but his route in the King George does not make him an all time great.
Not for one minute would I say he could not have become one of the best but we have very little evidence to suggest he was anywhere near as good as Sea the Stars and co.
His rating was another no choice rating from Timeform. He beat highly rated horse by 11 lengths and the next thing you know he’s the new Sea Bird II…does Master Minded ring a bell?
I doubt if in years to come Harbinger will be on the tongues of many people when we talk about great horses, he simply didn’t do enough.
If he had beaten a consistant horse like Fame and Glory by 11 lengths and say Sariska had been 3rd then he wouldn’t have many disputing his right to a top rating but Youmzain apart from being 100% spot on in every years Arc is about as unreliable a yardstick as you could possibly get.
Timeform give out high ratings like candy and perhaps they forgot to consider that the last time Youmzain ran at Ascot he was trounced by 10 lengths by another would be Superstar in Duke of Marmalade.
Another pointer to how good he really was is Ryan Moore rejecting the ride on him in the King George. Jockeys like Moore know when they have a wonder horse under them yet he chose to ride Workforce without hesitation.
Had he not injured himself he may well have gone on to win the Arc and he would have become the highest rated horse of all time. That is utter nonsense when you look at this years Arc it looks as bad as they come and not a patch on the one Sea Bird II won which was one of the best fields ever assembled on a race track and he routed the lot of them.
Just goes to prove that ratings after a year are worth very little……We saw master Minded jump over Kauto Star and Denman to become the highest rated chaser in trainer because he beat a previous QMCC winner…that was the joke of the century and Harbinger becoming the highest rated horse of all time beating what is running at this time would have outdone that IMO.
May all seem a bit harsh to some but one spectacular win doesn’t make a champion and I’ve seen dozens off them only to see the winner fall flat on his backside when the real big guns come out.
Timeform give out high ratings like candy…
And yet on another thread you ask why they have not rated Zenyatta the best horse in the world for beating – and not by wide margins or while turning handsprings – a bunch of fillies who might struggle to win in listed company over here.
Keep up the good work.
No. Ascot is a specialist course and he only performed great there. Unfortunately, we’ll never know if he could consistently reproduce the level elsewhere.
His performance made an average King George very exciting ‘though.
Great??? The 2nd most over-used word (just behind Genius)… He was a good flat horse for one season and a couple of races… Is it not the fact that the flat industry is so desperate to have heros that any decent horse that comes along is elevated to Greatness. Lets see some horses doing it year in year out, over different distances, track, countries before we start over using words like "All time greats"
I see I’ve read again that Ascot is a specialist course. Can someone explain what makes it that compared to every other course in Britain? Claiming horses don’t win Group 1’s there, sprinters don’t win 2 mile races etc. When we have Chester and Epsom, for example, I would think Ascot is "normal."
Harbinger an "all time great?" I’d argue yes, but not many would agree with me.
I see I’ve read again that Ascot is a specialist course. Can someone explain what makes it that compared to every other course in Britain? Claiming horses don’t win Group 1’s there, sprinters don’t win 2 mile races etc. When we have Chester and Epsom, for example, I would think Ascot is "normal."
My thoughts entirely. It is a received wisdom I am about to investigate more fully.
I think the specialist tag may apply more to jumps racing at Ascot. Just had a quick look, the figs below are run on a UK database only so subsequent runs abroad aren’t included…
Current Run Is A GP1, GP2, GP3
LTO Won GP1, GP2, GP3 At New Ascot24-101 = 23.76% +15.16 points at BFSP +15%ROI at BFSP
Winners were
Date ……………….. Horse ……………….. Course ……………….. Odds
12/07/2006 ………. Sander Camillo ………. Newmarket ………. 1.38
13/07/2006 ………. Soapy Danger ………. Newmarket ………. 5
14/07/2006 ………. Les Arcs ………. Newmarket ………. 10
03/08/2006 ………. Yeats ………. Goodwood ………. 0.9
29/09/2006 ………. Dutch Art ………. Newmarket ………. 1.2
11/05/2007 ………. Admiralofthefleet ………. Chester ………. 3.5
12/07/2007 ………. Winker Watson ………. Newmarket ………. 2.75
31/07/2007 ………. Tariq ………. Goodwood ………. 3.5
01/08/2007 ………. Ramonti ………. Goodwood ………. 4.5
27/10/2007 ………. Ibn Khaldun ………. Doncaster ………. 2.75
25/04/2008 ………. Ask ………. Sandown ………. 0.61
03/05/2008 ………. Henrythenavigator ………. Newmarket ………. 11
04/05/2008 ………. Captain Gerrard ………. Newmarket ………. 7.5
19/06/2008 ………. Yeats ………. Ascot ………. 1.38
26/07/2008 ………. Duke Of Marmalade ………. Ascot ………. 0.67
30/07/2008 ………. Henrythenavigator ………. Goodwood ………. 0.36
31/07/2008 ………. Yeats ………. Goodwood ………. 0.53
23/08/2008 ………. Duke Of Marmalade ………. Newmarket ………. 0.67
02/05/2009 ………. Amour Propre ………. Newmarket ………. 7
20/08/2009 ………. Lady Of The Desert ………. York ………. 1.63
07/07/2010 ………. Memory ………. Newmarket ………. 1.25
09/07/2010 ………. Starspangledbanner ………. Newmarket ………. 2
24/07/2010 ………. Harbinger ………. Ascot ………. 4
28/07/2010 ………. Canford Cliffs ………. Goodwood ………. 0.67
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