- This topic has 33 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
The way
Camelot
shaped at Royal Ascot makes me of the opinion that he did not show anything like his true form. For a horse to go from travelling smoothly to beaten in a few strides suggests some physical or mental issue.
The question remains, what is his true form?
As for training mistakes, I don’t know if this is one of the worst of all time, but David Pipe’s decision to run
Grands Crus
in the Pillar Chase this year strikes me as a shocking one. To run a horse with very suspect stamina – who recently recovered from some physical issues and is probably low on confidence – in a gruelling soft ground 3m 1f chase defies all sense. Grands Crus then missed the Cheltenham Festival and ran a very unhealthy-looking race at Aintree. Well played, Mr Pipe.
Grand Crus bombed in the RSA and the Paddy power. Who knows what the issue is with the horse, but the issues clearly manifested themselves before the Pillar.
This might be a controversial one, but Jonjo O’Neill’s decision to run the ill-fated
Synchronised
in the Grand National is jarring in my memory too. Sure, he was a Welsh and Midlands National winner, but the horse took home a piece of almost every fence in the Gold Cup! I have no idea why connections thought this was a suitable horse for the race.
A fluke accident cannot be construed as the greatest training mistake ever.
Totally agree that Synchronised should never have run in the GN, he was a terrible jumper and it was sadly an accident waiting to happen. He could get away with it over smaller birch fences. Poor boy paid the price.
I would say that it was a mistake not to retire Workforce after his Arc win.
The way
Camelot
shaped at Royal Ascot makes me of the opinion that he did not show anything like his true form. For a horse to go from travelling smoothly to beaten in a few strides suggests some physical or mental issue.
The question remains, what is his true form?
As for training mistakes, I don’t know if this is one of the worst of all time, but David Pipe’s decision to run
Grands Crus
in the Pillar Chase this year strikes me as a shocking one. To run a horse with very suspect stamina – who recently recovered from some physical issues and is probably low on confidence – in a gruelling soft ground 3m 1f chase defies all sense. Grands Crus then missed the Cheltenham Festival and ran a very unhealthy-looking race at Aintree. Well played, Mr Pipe.
Grand Crus bombed in the RSA and the Paddy power. Who knows what the issue is with the horse, but the issues clearly manifested themselves before the Pillar.
This might be a controversial one, but Jonjo O’Neill’s decision to run the ill-fated
Synchronised
in the Grand National is jarring in my memory too. Sure, he was a Welsh and Midlands National winner, but the horse took home a piece of almost every fence in the Gold Cup! I have no idea why connections thought this was a suitable horse for the race.
A fluke accident cannot be construed as the greatest training mistake ever.
It wasn’t a fluke accident because anybody could see the horse didn’t have the agility or scope for the big National fences.
Apart from connections.
Many iffy jumpers have run in that race and the outcome is different. It was simply an unfortunate incident.
Don’t let that get in the way of a chance to criticise and whine though.
Apart from connections.
Many iffy jumpers have run in that race and the outcome is different. It was simply an unfortunate incident.
Don’t let that get in the way of a chance to criticise and whine though.
I am not criticising and whining J17, I am merely pointing out that the horse was probably not best suited for the race. And the argument that loads of iffy jumpers have gotten away with it hardly supports your case. If it were up to me NO iffy jumpers would be allowed in the race, full stop.
I agree with you, Admiralofthefleet. The argument that many iffy jumpers have got away with their lives after running in the Grand National doesn’t hold much water. It’s like saying you’ve never worn a seatbelt in a car, but nothing bad has happened to you. That doesn’t make it right.
Fair points about Grands Crus though, J17, although there was a valid excuse for his RSA run. Could well be that he hasn’t been right for a while.
An interesting subject for discussion.
I can only add that as Camelot, as many on here aver, is one of our lesser Derby winners, then his trainer merits only praise for bagging a 2,00gns and Derby with him. (And a GP1 at two)
There is an understandable but false idea that Derby winners are somehow "extra special" and should be considered to have some mystical level of ability that any subsequent defeat must be put down to human rather than equine weakness (the Arc falls into that category too). Perhaps it’s to do with the pre-race hype, the over-analysis and interviewing of winning connections that builds up this image of a champion when the reality is the horse is simply the best on the day without any extra quality that one sees only very rarely. I could reel off a list of p!ss-poor Derby and Arc winners (when compared to the very best), but I’m sure you get my point. What Camelot proves is just how great a trainer A. O’Brien is.
Every trainer makes mistakes – the better the horse, the more prestigious the race, the "greater" the error when a horse is stuffed. I’d rather someone told me of a trainer who acheived things with modest horses that one had no right to expect.
A member of my family had a number of modest horses with a totally unfashionable trainer. Yet most years, he’d get one (or two or three) ready for him and tell him to get his betting-boots on. He was spot-on maybe 75% of the time. These horses were modestly bred and raced in run-of-the-mill events at the lesser courses, yet he knew when – from their average of 10 or 12 runs a season – everything was set for them to win. Now that’s what I call a trainer. (He’s dead now).O’Brien said this week that Camelot was the best horse they have ever had, I nearly choked on my Ham, Cheese, onion, pickle, tomato, cucumber, pepper and lettuce sandwich. But I think something went wrong somewhere because surely he had done enough at 3 to warrant a decent stud fee and they must have had faith in him to carry on at 4.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
I agree with you, Admiralofthefleet. The argument that many iffy jumpers have got away with their lives after running in the Grand National doesn’t hold much water. It’s like saying you’ve never worn a seatbelt in a car, but nothing bad has happened to you. That doesn’t make it right.
Fair points about Grands Crus though, J17, although there was a valid excuse for his RSA run. Could well be that he hasn’t been right for a while.
Well if many have done it before, thus the conclusion that this was the worst training mistake ever seems hilarious?
Personally i was vehemently against Grand Crus winning the RSA. Still, his form in the RSA and onwards is somewhat perplexing, though it is difficult to truely ascertain what the problem is. Could be a mistake they made at home or could just be variables they can’t control ; i.e the horse.
O’Brien said this week that Camelot was the best horse they have ever had, I nearly choked on my Ham, Cheese, onion, pickle, tomato, cucumber, pepper and lettuce sandwich. But I think something went wrong somewhere because surely he had done enough at 3 to warrant a decent stud fee and they must have had faith in him to carry on at 4.
I completely agree Nathan and have made this point before. Its looking a strange decision to race Camelot at 4yo currently. There must surely be something more to come, or he’s probably halfed his stud fee.
I have a feeling he’ll pop up in a Group 1 at a big price at some stage this season, if not then I’ll have followed him off a cliff.
Does seem that they are also not sure why Camelot is not performing as they believe he should. Perhaps as soon as he has to push it hurts and he just holds a little back?
I think the colic surgery could be a bigger factor than some people realise. Most horses would not come back from that to their previous physical peak. With a horse that has had his intestine operated on there is a much heightened risk of a recurrence, and it could prove fatal. As Freeradical already mentioned, perhaps the horse is just protecting himself.
Another thing to remember is that Montjeu’s are rarely brilliant over 10f. They generally need at least 12f to be at their best. Who knows what might happen over the longer distance next time out?
One of the big mistakes is if the judgement is off running a horse over too far first up,it can flatten them for the whole preparation if they are not as fit as thought.Sometimes the work that is given can flatten them prior to the run.
One of the big mistakes is if the judgement is off running a horse over too far first up,it can flatten them for the whole preparation if they are not as fit as thought.Sometimes the work that is given can flatten them prior to the run.
I agree with that. I think that cooked My Way De Solzen. I know he was a World Hurdle winner, but he was never the strongest stayer. Being brutalised by Kauto Star and Exotic Dancer first time up over three miles could not have done him much good.
"Sir" Mark Prescott’s continued inability to gauge a horse’s correct trip until its 4th run
and of course; trainer Stephen Wiles’ unfortunate mistake in sending Good Hand to Leicester in place of his equine identical twin, Flockton Grey.
Verbally I’ll never forget Mohamed Moubarak’s claim that "Forest Tiger will never be beaten" after his debut romp.
The horse beat 1 home in 3 subsequent runs.
Lee
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.