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Can anyone tell me why no top quality British and Irish chasers dont bother to run the Grand Steeplechase de Paris despite the fact that the prize money this year was 800,000 euros (more valueble than the Chetlenham Gold Cup). I would love to see the likes of Kauto Star, Denman, Exotic Dancer, Monets Garden, Beef or Salmon and Kicking King take on the best french trained chasers the winner taking the crown of the champion steeplechaser of europe. If it is done right the race can become jump racing’s Arc. I would love to see thousends of british and irish racegoers swell the crowds at Aueteil. Surley owners and trainers would get bored of tagetting the Chetlenham Gold cup every year and they must be looking for new challenges. I would also like to see the likes of Black Jack Ketchum and Inglish Drever run in the French Champion Hurdle. Come on jump trainers the entire NH season does not just take place for 4 days each March.
It would be nice to see higher profile UK & IRE chasers going to Paris.
The Grand Steeple-Chase de Paris is ran over 3m5f in what’s usually testing ground. Not an ideal starting point in a campaign for our best horses.
I suppose that after Dawn Run’s sad demise in the French Champion Hurdle and accusations of running her when she was over the top it’s not been fashionable for trainers to run there. I don’t know how many British raiders there have been over the years or how successful they have been [has Nicky Henderson run a few over the years?]. As so many of our horses are French bred and would probably handle the going quite well maybe things will change, but at that time of year I would imagine that most trainers will be thinking of running their firm ground horses in the summer racing.
It would indeed be nice to see English and Irish Gold-Cup class horses running in the Grand Prix de Paris, but it ain’t gonna happen.
After a long, hard season and with most of these horses having been aggressively campaigned, no trainer is going to entertain the idea of keeping a horse in training for an additional 2 months just to have a crack at the Paris race. Even Punchestown is usually a festival too far for the top-class chasers.
The prize money on offer in the UK and Ireland at Group 1 level now compares very favourably with France, and is boosted by initiatives like the Order of Merit. The Grand Prix de Paris is still more valuable to the winner than the CGC, but only marginally so (£243k vs.242k).
Willie Mullins has been by some way the most successful raider in recent years, and comes over regularly when the serious stuff in England and Ireland is over.
He has won the French Champion Hurdle (beating my namesake horse Karly Flight) in 2003 and again the following year with Rule Supreme who had won the R&S Chase at cheltenham.
He was also seriously coming over for the Grand Steeple Chase with Hedgehunter the year he won the Grand National but the horse didn’t recover as quickly as he would have liked from Aintree.
It is a shame more trainers don’t try their luck over at Auteuil when the big events across the channel have finished but it is understandable that such as Kauto Star et al can’t be at the top of their game all through the year and in very different conditions.I think the failure of British trainers to seriously target the Grande Steeplechase shows a shocking lack of imagination.
A horse like The Listener is always going to be hamstrung by quick ground in the Gold Cup. I don’t see any reason why he couldn’t be targeted at the Lexus Chase in the first half of the season, let down in January/February, and then trained for the big race in May, where both ground and trip would likely be in his favour.
Timeform suggest that the race would be an ideal target for Neptune Collonges, and it’s hard to argue with it, as he has a similiar profile to The Listener, imo.
The 3m Prix La Haye Jousselin is run on the same day as the Nicholson Champion Chase at Down Royal, and is perhaps a more suitable Auteuil target for UK-trained staying chasers, given that it comes at the start of the season proper.
If I was an owner of a smart, soft-ground staying chaser, the race would be number one priority in the early part of the year – at £140K to the winner, it’s worth more than the Charlie Hall and Nicholson Chase combined, and a horse only needs to run up to a mark in the high 150’s to go close.
Couldn’t agree more with Grasshopper. You could ram both hands in a blender and still come out with enough fingers to count how often the Gold Cup has been run on softer ground than the GSDP in the last two decades.
(Note: don’t try this at home).
There are any number of recent Gold Cup aspirants in addition to The Listener whose energies would have been better guided towards the Auteuil contest on the likely ground there alone. Kingscliff, almost certainly, hell, even one little try for Beef Or Salmon would have rated a more enterprising punt than so many attempts at a Gold Cup test to which he proved unsuited in the main.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
I always thought it was due to a combination of inferior prize money and bad timing in the season. At £240K+ to the winner the former’s most certainly out the window!
Wasn’t there talk of connections sending My Will to the Grande Steeplechase Du Paris this year? Would suit him down to the ground IMO.
I find the official going descriptions at Auteuil about as credible as those at the Festival. There is a consistent seasonal pattern to racetimes there – slower in the winter, faster in the summer – which the going description rarely seems to reflect.
Here here, another to agree with Grasshopper. British NH does tend to be extremely conservetive when it comes to anything new or different. Hence the lack of runners abroad, something which can’t be said of the Flat trainers. Interesting question, but who is the top chaser in Europe?
We would say Kauto Star, what about the French? And what ever happened to Kotkijet, who was owned by Wildenstein?Kauto Star will comfortably be the top-rated chaser in Europe, Andy – by a good half-stone at least, I would imagine.
Timeform rate him at 184+, with Exotic Dancer second at 175+. I’m not sure what ratings they are given in the UK/Irish Classification, but I’d expect the differential to be roughly the same.
As for Kotkijet, he was out injured for a couple of years, returning in 2006, where his best effort was when running third in the GSdP behind Princess D’Anjou. It was his last race.
Kotkijet was supposed to go to the October Sales that year, as part of a Wildebeest dispersal, but he was withdrawn due to some technicality about the estate (tax related, I think).
Grassy,
Do you agree with timeform? Over 3m 2f do you think there’s 9lbs between them? I don’t…
Aragorn
The two ratings quoted by Grasshopper are the annual ratings from Chasers and Hurdlers 2006/7. The rating is the highest that the horse achieved throughout the course of the season, not necessarily what they ran to in the Gold Cup. In fact given the way the Gold Cup was run (steady pace dictated by Beef or Salmon) it is necessary to take a lowish view of the bare form of that race.
Kauto Star was afforded 184+ after the Betfair Chase at Haydock but his highest rating achieved on bare form was 178+ in the Old Roan Chase at Aintree. Rather ironically, his Gold Cup win was Kauto Star’s ‘worst’ run all year according to Timeform’s handicapper. Perhaps the horse is in decline!!
Exotic Dancer was given his rating of 175+ for his Betfair Bowl win at Aintree over 2m. Apart from his 2 handicap wins and the Carlisle farce, his Gold Cup form has also been rated inferior to his King George run and Cotswold Chase too.
For me the Gold Cup highlights how ratings need to be treated with caution and how an understanding of the way the race was run affects the rating that could be run to. In coming from poor positions in a steadily run race, the first 2 in the Gold Cup were both miles better than the bare form not just in the Timeform handicappers opinion (as shown by the fact their bare performance figure in the race is so much lower than their master rating) but also my own.
Whether this means Kauto Star is 9 lb better at the Gold Cup trip than Exotic Dancer I’m not sure, however I do feel that he’s sufficiently superior to ensure he’ll continue to beat him whenever they meet throughout the next season.
I agree with your assessment DJ. For me exotic dancers best chance of beating KS is over the Gold Cup distance.. At 3m (Round kempton in particular) or less I can’t see anything getting near him..
Personally I think the form of the Gold Cup is a little ‘suspect’. I was hoping for a true run race from the tapes flying, however it was steady; in fact turning in with two to jump most were still in contention. Mormally in a Gold Cup they get strung out, finding out the stayers from non stayers. I’m not totally convinced that Kauto Star would’ve stayed, but that’s beside the point now. He won, but the race wasn’t suited to Exotic Dancer.
Have the French agreed that KS is the best chaser in Europe?? I’m sure they’d disagree,….Have the French agreed that KS is the best chaser in Europe?? I’m sure they’d disagree,….
They probably would, Mid Dancer is unbeaten over there. But he was put in his place when he ran a couple of races over here as a novice (2nd to Monet’s Garden, 12th in the Arkle), although they’ll argue that they were over an inferior trip.
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