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Jollyp,
I wouldn’t have a clue if Black Caviar is better than Dayjur, Lochsong, Abernant or Pegasus and I don’t care any which way, but out of interest has Black Caviar produced any or many time/speed ratings good enough to bolster her lofty form ratings?
I know nothing about Australian racing but given that it is punted by ‘serious’ punters both at home and around the world your racing media presumably employs a number of adept speedfigure/timefigure analysts
Drone she is the only horse in history here to run a sub 10 second furlong,she has run 1200mt in 1min 7.3 and 1000mt in 55.5.The only horse in history to win a Group 1 race over 7f then come back to 5f one week later to win another Group 1.I think it was the Lightning where she ran something like 31.6 secs foe 3f and 43.something for 4f(or 800mt)
Dear oh dear GT, FFS
No she beat better horses, and she is a superior horse to Dayjur.Calm down Jollyp,
You obviously didn’t like me pointing out how we did NOT under-estimate the Aussies.
You like to think of yourself/youselves as hard done by. 
Always cherry picking and trying to put a slant on things GT.25-1 Choisir
not underestimated 
Now what annoys me on here is when a horse like SYT can win 5 Group 1 Races there in around 12 months(10 Group 1’s in all) and the horse is so maligned in a lot of quarters there.Besides Frankel who and when was the last horse there good enough to do that!!!she is the only horse in history here to run a sub 10 second furlong,she has run 1200mt in 1min 7.3 and 1000mt in 55.5.The only horse in history to win a Group 1 race over 7f then come back to 5f one week later to win another Group 1.I think it was the Lightning where she ran something like 31.6 secs foe 3f and 43.something for 4f(or 800mt)
Thanks, on paper those are very impressive stats but I was rather hoping you could supply adjusted speed/timefigures directly comparable with the form ratings, as supplied by such as Topspeed and Timeform here in the UK.
Not that they’re necessarily any more revealing than the ‘splits’ you’ve given above, just that my senescing little grey racing cells can only function on a diet of pounds – 140 great, 130 very good, 120 good…etc etc
No worries if you can’t, cobber
she is the only horse in history here to run a sub 10 second furlong,she has run 1200mt in 1min 7.3 and 1000mt in 55.5.The only horse in history to win a Group 1 race over 7f then come back to 5f one week later to win another Group 1.I think it was the Lightning where she ran something like 31.6 secs foe 3f and 43.something for 4f(or 800mt)
Thanks, on paper those are very impressive stats but I was rather hoping you could supply adjusted speed/timefigures directly comparable with the form ratings, as supplied by such as Topspeed and Timeform here in the UK.
Not that they’re necessarily any more revealing than the ‘splits’ you’ve given above, just that my senescing little grey racing cells can only function on a diet of pounds – 140 great, 130 very good, 120 good…etc etc
No worries if you can’t, cobber
Drone whilst sectionals are used here in form quite a bit, adjusted speed/timefigures are hardly used here.Obviously times are important,therefore once a track is known i think most take that into account when watching the replays.Here all the serious and pro punters pick their winners from one source only,watching dozens and dozens of race replays.I say one source,obviously in conjunction with the form for said race that the horse is going around in.I can think of a couple of real mudlarks here from the past who were brilliant on heavily rain affected tracks,but were either no good on firm going or would jar up.I think in that light at times adjusted figures they would have received for their big margin win and good time can be a little misleading.
Now what annoys me on here is when a horse like SYT can win 5 Group 1 Races there in around 12 months(10 Group 1’s in all) and the horse is so maligned in a lot of quarters there.Besides Frankel who and when was the last horse there good enough to do that!!!
Jollyp,
So you Think was rated by Timeform the same in Britain as he was in Australia, 132. However, what caused SYT to be "maligned in a lot of quarters" in Britain – was the fact he was so hyped by the Aussies, particularly again the Aussie Press and Bart. We were led to expect the second coming, a horse capable of giving Frankel a race. Hence "our" disappointment.Value Is EverythingIf Frankel were upped 3 lbs instead Drone, wouldn’t it mean upping all the good horses in future too? Surely it is best to get the ratings right now, once and for all?
As I said Gingerfigures my gripe is of no importance; it’s from the heart not the head
Though I would question your seemingly unequivocal ‘right’ about today’s methods, particularly when inflicted on ancient horses and by extension, ancient races
Anyway, you and I will always have Timeform’s interpretations to take to our graves as presumably they won’t be downgrading Sea-Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Dancing Brave et al now Frankel’s been awarded a 147
147 145 144 144 142 142 142 141 140 140 140 140 140 140…luverley eh?
139 Generous…hard cheese old chap
Now what annoys me on here is when a horse like SYT can win 5 Group 1 Races there in around 12 months(10 Group 1’s in all) and the horse is so maligned in a lot of quarters there.Besides Frankel who and when was the last horse there good enough to do that!!!
Jollyp,
So you Think was rated by Timeform the same in Britain as he was in Australia, 132. However, what caused SYT to be "maligned in a lot of quarters" in Britain – was the fact he was so hyped by the Aussies, particularly again the Aussie Press and Bart. We were led to expect the second coming, a horse capable of giving Frankel a race. Hence "our" disappointment.You show me an article where Bart has hyped up So You Think and i will send you a thousand pounds! Bart is the master of understating things,you will never find an article on Bart hyping up any horse he has had.
Now what annoys me on here is when a horse like SYT can win 5 Group 1 Races there in around 12 months(10 Group 1’s in all) and the horse is so maligned in a lot of quarters there.Besides Frankel who and when was the last horse there good enough to do that!!!
Jollyp,
So you Think was rated by Timeform the same in Britain as he was in Australia, 132. However, what caused SYT to be "maligned in a lot of quarters" in Britain – was the fact he was so hyped by the Aussies, particularly again the Aussie Press and Bart. We were led to expect the second coming, a horse capable of giving Frankel a race. Hence "our" disappointment.You show me an article where Bart has hyped up So You Think and i will send you a thousand pounds! Bart is the master of understating things,you will never find an article on Bart hyping up any horse he has had.
http://www.news.com.au/sport/superracin … 6419455559
Cheque in the post?
Brilliant Boz. He’ll say those comments are all valid though. A shame this thread has become another Aussie v Brits row. Very boring. Thanks to Drone for trying to get it back on track though.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
:lol:
Brilliant Boz. He’ll say those comments are all valid though. A shame this thread has become another Aussie v Brits row. Very boring. Thanks to Drone for trying to get it back on track though.
Bart says that So You Think is the best horse he has trained!! Where is the hype in that do you pair know what the word hype actually means!!!For f#cks sake Henry Cecil would say Frankel is the best horse i have trained!!! Sheer brilliance from you both
An interesting link which shows which races they used to give the horses their ratings. http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resour … nkings.asp
On a slightly pedantic note it’s not the Greatest of All Time, it’s the greatest since they started in 1977.
Its only taken 25yrs to drop the legendary <b>Dancing Brave</b> 3lbs eh? Whys that then? Is it because ‘Frankel’ brilliant miler who easily got 1/4m on good ground but certainly didn’t get it on heavy thereby suggesting that 11/2m might just have found him out won the Arc? Er No! Connections ruined the opportunity for all of us to openly admit that ‘Frankel’ truly was the Greatest horse of all time by bottling out of testing him over the trip that seperates the good from the Great.I sleep easy at night knowing that <b>Dancing Brave</b> passed every test a thoroughbred Racehorse bred with that unique blend of speed and stamina could contest.’Frankel’ passed ‘nearly’ all but his school report would have said ‘Shame he wasn’t pushed a bit harder’.We’ll never know if ‘Frankel’ would have won the Greatest 11/2m race in the world but had he,then and only then could he be described as the Greatest of all time. His numbers will never add up to those achieved by the Greatest horse I’ve seen because had he lost over a 11/2m due to lack of stamina all we’d be saying is what the above title suggests and that is the top and bottom of it!
Of the distances both horses did contest and win over ; 8f and 10f – do you really think Dancing Brave could have defeated Frankel over either or both ?
I certainly don’t.
Frankel every day of the week for me – and the owner of both horses too, apparently.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Of the distances both horses did contest and win over ; 8f and 10f – do you really think Dancing Brave could have defeated Frankel over either or both ?
I certainly don’t.
Frankel every day of the week for me – and the owner of both horses too, apparently.
Cant disagree with you there Sir,nothing would have beaten ‘Frankel’ in the 2000gns,a truly ‘I was there moment’ I’d imagine,however ‘Frankel’ is being rated as the ‘Greatest horse of all time’ and yet his CV clearly has something missing,something those of us with tradition and historical statistics to support us believe is crucial to assessing his relative merits and that is he never contested one race over 11/2m.’Dancing Brave’ clocked the equivalent speed figure to a 5f sprinter covering the final furlong of The Derby and won The Arc recognised by the Traditionalist as’The Race’ to win.Over a 11/2m on the soft side of good I wouldn’t bet against ‘Dancing Brave’! Still like I say its just a bloody shame we never did see ‘Frankel’ at least have a go!……..Do you ever wonder why?
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