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Ahem…
Btw, you still haven’t replied to my question about why Dr Fager is considered by the american public as far superior to the likes of Gallant Fox, Omaha and Assault, all triple crown winners. I could just as easily substitute Dr Fager for other all-time greats that did not have to win the triple crown like Kelso, Forego, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer etc.. in this argument, and it would still hold. And, he says it’s backfired on me? Delusion at its best!
Hey APK, I get the feeling that you have no idea what you are talking about. These are the past performances of the horse you are denigrating:
http://www1.drf.com/misc/excerpts/dr_fager.pdf
Hey APK, I get the feeling that you have no idea what you are talking about. These are the past performances of the horse you are denigrating:
http://www1.drf.com/misc/excerpts/dr_fager.pdf
Its only a feeling Miss Woodward,it will pass! This
Dr Fagar
really typifies how you yanks like to bull your horses up into something they just aren’t,his record of 18 victorys from 22 outings reads like a progressive handicapper who managed to win a couple of Grade 1 races,his victories are strewn with ‘handicap’ Grade 3 and Grade 2,he beats another very good horse in
Damascus
twice but heh ho,’Damascus’ beats ‘Dr Fagar’ twice too,yeh the stuff of legends eh?
All Time Greats dont go around beating each other,they beat whats put in front of them in recognised races that are always Grade 1’s
. Just how many of your US heroes come over and conquer our recognised Grade 1 races in Europe? Take as long as you need Miss Woodward,then ask yourself Why that is dear? Now I’ll excuse your patriotic loyaltys to your horses as you can only rate them on what they have done in America running round in circles on Dirt mostly,whereas SeabirdII should know better that our all Time Greats are not only tested by a better quality horse over various trips around unique courses and who are capable of whooping the US horses over there in the United States Of America.I can think of plenty European ‘handicappers turned Group 1 winners from these shores,
Continent
and
Petong
to name but 2 but would I call them ‘All Time Greats’……er…….No! Get Real!
The system of "graded" stakes didn’t exist until 1972. Prior to that there were no G1, G2, G3 designations. Believe me, most of the races Dr. Fager (spell his name right) won were very prestigious. The best races for American older horses were/are handicaps. It is the
handicap
division.
Cowdin Stakes – became a G1
Gotham Stakes – major KY Derby prep won by Secretariat, Easy Goer, etc.
Withers Stakes – used to be one of the biggest 3yo races of the spring, won by Colin, Man O’War, Count Fleet, Native Dancer, etc.
Jersey Derby –
Arlington Classic – like the Withers, was an extremely prestigious 3yo race in the past, won by Gallant Fox, Omaha, Nashua, Alydar, etc.
Hawthorne Gold Cup – became a G1
Vosburgh Handicap – became a G1, was/is one the most important sprint race on the east coast. Dr. Fager won it twice.
Californian Handicap – became a G1
Suburban Handicap – became a G1, was one of the most important route races for older horses on the east coast
Whitney Handicap – became a G1
United Nations Handicap – became a G1, was by far the most important turf race in the country prior to the Breeders Cup. Was also the first major turf stakes in the United States.I think what really sticks in my throat about this
Dr Fager
is the fact that the American public took to him early on in his career Miss Woodward,his last race as a 2yo cemented that fact when winning at Aqueduct,he would by todays standard have traded at 50’s in running for sure.What the Public wanted to see him do as a 3yo was to contest the Triple crown, (US recognised races of All Time Greatness) but its still a contentious issue to this day as to why he never ran in any of them,Ok ‘injury’ curtailed any thoughts of the Kentucky Derby but there was no reason at all to ‘avoid’ the ‘Preakness’ and the ‘Belmont’ his old adversary
Damascus
did contest all 3 and won 2 so hindsight and collateral form do suggest he was a major contender.I’m afraid Great horse that you Americans built him up to be he fails miserably as an all time Great simply for not contesting the 3 classics! I’ve already stated I do believe
Man O War
was an All Time Great who would have been unbeaten but for one single defeat and we all know what happened there,(Conspiracy theories galore)!
I often think of our Great old ‘Handicapper’ Teleprompter
when I think of
Dr Fager
,we loved him too!
I suspect The Ante-Post king is The Fisher King in disguise
And you would be Sam Fisher Double agent eh Joe?
At least mines an Oscar winning performance then! I reckon Frankel should step up to 10f no problem. At Goodwood he bearly got going, had plenty left, looked like he could of done another lap.
As for
Canford Cliffs average…………..
Won 3 different races at Royal Ascot 3 years in a row. 5 Group 1’s. The horse who’s sire had never produced a group 1 winner.
If he’s average what that make the rest of um…….
Go tell Richard Hughes and Mr Hannon the horse is average.
Who on earth said Canford Cliffs was average? There’s one in every village Nathan and they are best ignored.
When something like Frankel appears on the scene which is like once in every 50 years everything looks average and people latch on to it.
I seem to remember some people hailing Goldikova as the best filly/mare they had ever seen yet Canford Cliffs beat her like she was a mere pacemaker. Hughsie had so much horse under him he could have passed her at will anytime he liked.
There’s every chance without Frankel around Excelebration would be on 9 consecutive wins by now and this thread would be full of punters telling us how he is the best miler of all time
Frankel is without doubt one of the greatest racehorses of all time and form on paper can’t tell that story only your eyes can.
Anyone who can’t see that or denies it is either a wind up merchant named TAPK or one of their eyes has gone shopping and the other one is coming back with the change.
In your opinion would a 6y/o Canford Cliffs have beaten a 4 y/o Goldikova in that race ?
A 4 year old Goldi would beat a 6 year old Canford you would have to think.
But I reckon a 4 yo Canford beats Goldi at 4 as Paco Boy got plenty close enough to the wondermare when she was 4 in Queen Anne and he wasn’t as good as Canford.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Goldikova was 5 when she won the Queen Anne in 2010. In 2009 Marois she ran earned a rating of 130, her highest rating. On 2009 form she would have beaten Canford Cliffs at his best with some authority.
The ratings quoted are the World Thoroughbred rankings.
What is the premium age for a Horse / Mare? I was always under the impression a "colt" matured fully at 5 hence him then being known as a "horse" (likewise filly changing to mare at the same age).
So why have you assumed Nathan that Canford Cliffs would have regressed from 4 to 6? Or is it from 5 to 6 you are assuming?
Supermans fault, he should of wrote would a 7 y/o Canford beat a 4 year old Goldi?…….
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I don’t know PC, stop asking difficult questions..
I’m assuming they hit their peak at 3 or 4. So many retire for obvious reasons but if they were to get better at 5 and 6 more of the great ones would stay in training to win more of the big prizes or not?
Blackbeard to conquer the World
I don’t know PC, stop asking difficult questions..
I’m assuming they hit their peak at 3 or 4. So many retire for obvious reasons but if they were to get better at 5 and 6 more of the great ones would stay in training to win more of the big prizes or not?
My apologies
. They cannot peak at 3yo or the WFA scale has a slight logistical problem, no?I’ve always been under the impression that horses (both male and female) are fully strengthened at 5 hence the change in names. This however may be incorrect as there is no WFA scale i don’t believe after a horse has become 4yo?
I think you’re right PC. I suppose it depends on the individual horse, if one has not trained on as a three y/o I guess that means peaked at 2 for that horse?
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Not sure to be honest Nathan – i’ve always assumed that the likes of Arazi and Jo’burg were stronger, faster horses at 3 than 2, but had only improved a small amount compared to their peers so had been caught up and surpassed by less precocious juveniles.
I have always been under the impression that filles are more unlikely to train on from 3 to 4 than a colt, but that could be complete nonsense.
I have also read on here people doubting, for examply, Frankel "training on" from 3 to 4. Given that over a mile he would race horses a year older than him at levels rather than recieving 3lb (as he did as a 3yo in the QE2), i assume that the Powers that Be expect 4yo’s to perform 3lb better than they did at 3yo.
I must also assume that as there is no WFA for 4yo’s than the Powers that Be believe a horse (male or female) is at its physical peak at 4yo. I have been told by others that it is 5, hence the "name change" previously referred to.
I’d need someone a bit more informed to confirm either way to be honest.
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