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Your criteria for all time greatness is recognised throughout the world as the criteria to establish greatness? Haha, delusional. And, Chief Singer would have given Abernant a run over 6f? Just shows your level of horse racing knowldege really. There are quite a few pre-war triple crown winners who are hardly mentioned in the same vein as Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, who yet failed to get the Guineas and Derby distance respectively.
The criteria for all time greats is in the term itself i.e. whether they are resist the test of time and are still talked about in glowing terms by future generations, just like we are talking about Abernant, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave in this thread decades after their racing career. That’s how you recognise an all-time great, and whether you like it or not, future generations will be talking about Frankel in this very same way. All time great not all distance great, son!
Get it right sunshine You are talking about ‘Abernant’ and ‘Tudor Minstrel, as all time greats! I think sentiment is ruling your old head,incredibly both being closely related to a horse with plenty of stamina (Hyperion) neither had any! You fancy yourself as a bit of a judge eh?
Your criteria for all time greatness is recognised throughout the world as the criteria to establish greatness? Haha, delusional. And, Chief Singer would have given Abernant a run over 6f? Just shows your level of horse racing knowldege really. There are quite a few pre-war triple crown winners who are hardly mentioned in the same vein as Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, who yet failed to get the Guineas and Derby distance respectively.
The criteria for all time greats is in the term itself i.e. whether they are resist the test of time and are still talked about in glowing terms by future generations, just like we are talking about Abernant, Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel, Dancing Brave in this thread decades after their racing career. That’s how you recognise an all-time great, and whether you like it or not, future generations will be talking about Frankel in this very same way. All time great not all distance great, son!
Get it right sunshine You are talking about ‘Abernant’ and ‘Tudor Minstrel, as all time greats! I think sentiment is ruling your old head,incredibly both being closely related to a horse with plenty of stamina (Hyperion) neither had any! You fancy yourself as a bit of a judge eh?
Says the one who argues his criteria is established around the world. Pebbles is an all-time great but not Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, oh well haha.. Anyway, you don’t like the Abernant and Tudor Minstrel examples, eh? Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
TAPK,
Let’s set you a puzzle:
Horse A wins the 2000 Guineas and wins giving horse B a 3 lb beating.
Horse B runs in the Dante and is given a 4 lbs beating by C, but is also given a thrashing of 14 lbs by the winner D.
Horse D gets injured and is unable to contest the Derby which A wins giving horse B a 3 lb beating.
Horse B runs in the Eclipse and is given a 4 lbs beating by C.
Horse A wins the King George giving B a 3 lb beating. With the reappearing after injury D given a 6 lbs beating by A.
Horse A wins the Irish Champion giving a 3 lb beating to B.
Horse B runs in the Prix Foy and is given a 4 lbs beating by C but is again given a 14 lbs beating by the winner D.
Any student of form will tell you that horse D has by far the best form. and they run in the Arc…
Horse D wins, giving C a 10 lb, A an 11 lb beating and B a 14 lbs beating.Horse A has won the Guineas, Derby, King George and Irish Champion showing good form (but not outstanding) in an average year for quality. That is… other than horse D who has far superior form than any other horse that year… It’s sad, because horse D is only capable of showing suck outstanding form at middle distances.
So who is the ALL TIME GREAT? Horse A? Not even (on form) the second best horse in training.
Or horse D, a far superior racehorse?Are you really going to say that the ALL TIME GREAT is the one who is on form not even the second best animal and must be rated 11 lbs inferior to D?
Value Is EverythingGord,
I’ll probably be able to introduce you tomorrow to the author of Bayardo – The life and times of an Edwardian Champion.
http://www.bayardo-champion.co.uk/
May be Bayardo is the only true Champion?
Value Is EverythingHow can a horse run in the Prix Foy and the classics in the same season?
Are you just spouting undiluted bullsh*t or has it been refined?
"The Ante-Post King wrote:
My Criteria (as you put it) for all time Greatness is actually recognised throughout the world of racing as The Criteria to establish Greatness
Who say’s so ?
To say you have to win at certain distances to be a great is ludicrous. It’s like saying Sir Don Bradman wasn’t a great cricketer because he wasn’t a bowler as well, Bobby Moore wasn’t a great footballer because he didn’t score many goals, Seb Coe wasn’t a great runner because he didn’t win over 100m or Carl Lewis wasn’t a great runner because he was only a sprinter.
Sitting here having a few beers after a tough week – but still feeling pretty sober and together.
Then I read the post 4 posts above this…
…and now I feel like my head is mince!!!
Says the one who argues his criteria is established around the world. Pebbles is an all-time great but not Abernant and Tudor Minstrel, oh well haha..
‘Abernant’ was a Group 1 sprinter in his day 5-6f and thats it!
He is and always will be recognised as a Great sprinter,not an all round All distance Great.’Tudor Minstrel’ won all of 2 Group 1’s both over a mile,I could name a dozen horses who have won 3!As for the wonder fillyPebbles
she not only won over 7f,1m, 11/4m and 11/2m she did it on 2 continents,she was voted horse of the year in America and the UK in 1985,now thats what you call an All time Great SeabirdII!
Great definition of ALL TIME GREAT Gord, a "
lucky
" horse.
NO! Sea The Stars was an ALL TIME GREAT because he was capable of OUTSTANDING FORM at 1m2f. That’s
ONE
distance.
I think you need your beauty sleep mate!
Sea the Stars
Arc victory cemented his greatness and that was over 11/2m as was his Derby win!
So Sea The Stars sealed his greatness beating two horses that have not won a single race in 21 subsequent races between them!!!
That does not strike me as a sign of greatness. Sea The Stars was a very good horse that achieved what would be a remarkable feat in most years, he did not have to be a remarkable horse to do it in 2009. For example it would be highly questionable whether he could have won some of those races last season. I’m thinking of Frankel’s Guineas, So You Think’s Eclipse and Danedreams Arc, granted he would most likely have been good enough to win the Derby and Juddmonte though.
Sitting here having a few beers after a tough week – but still feeling pretty sober and together.
Then I read the post 4 posts above this…
…and now I feel like my head is mince!!!
Ginge has got me there too corm! I’ll concede to his greater knowledge!
The Ante-Post King, erm…
Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
Could you try responding to the whole argument instead of nitpicking, or are you suggesting that Dr Fager is not an all-time great and Black Caviar won’t be considered as one in Australia, coz’ they don’t meet Mr TAPK’s criteria for greatness?
The Ante-Post King, erm…
Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
Could you try responding to the whole argument instead of nitpicking, or are you suggesting that Dr Fager is not an all-time great and Black Caviar won’t be considered as one in Australia, coz’ they don’t meet Mr TAPK’s criteria for greatness?
‘Dr Fager’ an all time great? Are you serious? To be an all time Great in the USA you have to be a triple crown winner we’ll leave them with
Secretariat
!
‘Black Caviar’ is a Top class Sprinter,IF and its a big IF she wins the Golden Jubilee and the July Cup she will get the credit she’ll deserve,She hasn’t so she aint no all time great yet SeabirdII and for the record its not my criteria its racings in general. ‘Dr Fager’ an all time Great!
Geezus!Youmzain
Fame And Glory
Mastercraftsman
Rip Van Winkle
Fame And Glory
Delegator
Mourayan
Dark Humour
Driving SnowThe above is the list of horses that Sea The Stars beat into 2nd place in his races.
A lot of quality there, although you could pick holes in it I guess, but plenty Gr 1 ‘stuff’.
But compare it, for example, to the list that Nashwan beat.
Cacoethes
Opening Verse
Terimon
Exbourne
Optimist
Young TurpinYou’d have to say the Sea The Stars list (above) is different class to the Nashwan collection. Fine horse that Nashwan was.
Some champions have it easier than other champions is my point. If you have an ‘easy’ year (in terms of opposition) it’s possible to rack up a pretty impressive CV.
Frankel, for the record, has Canford Cliffs among his scalps (and Nathaniel on his debut) but, when you look at the list of horses he’s beaten it still looks a bit light to me
However – he has dealt with whatever has been put in front of him them in no uncertain terms.I’ll be really interested if they decide to take him on with French Fifteen at some point (given it’s unlikely that Camelot will take him on).
Gord – when it comes to Frankel we all know who is "blinkered" mate. Your ego will never allow you to accept this horse in the way the vast majority of others do. You missed him. Never mind. We can’t all be perfect.
Joni I never missed him,
I could have
backed him at 10/1 for the Guineas as a 2yo,I watched him many times and I concluded he was a Nutcase,I was totally convinced he was a flash in the pan 2yo and that as a 3yo he would self-destruct,I thought his physique was too ‘square’ I didn’t like his head carriage,he was everything in a horse that Prince Khaled had never bred before.I was wrong about his Guineas performance,massively so,a truly awesome display!
So you did miss him then
The Ante-Post King, erm…
Well, just go and try convince the Americans that Dr Fager is not a US all time great just because he couldn’t get the 2400m or tell the Aussies that Black Caviar should not go down as one of their all-time greats! Best of luck!
Could you try responding to the whole argument instead of nitpicking, or are you suggesting that Dr Fager is not an all-time great and Black Caviar won’t be considered as one in Australia, coz’ they don’t meet Mr TAPK’s criteria for greatness?
‘Dr Fager’ an all time great? Are you serious? To be an all time Great in the USA you have to be a triple crown winner we’ll leave them with
Secretariat
!
‘Black Caviar’ is a Top class Sprinter,IF and its a big IF she wins the Golden Jubilee and the July Cup she will get the credit she’ll deserve,She hasn’t so she aint no all time great yet SeabirdII and for the record its not my criteria its racings in general. ‘Dr Fager’ an all time Great! Geezus!Now, he’s denying that Dr Fager is a US all time great! Oh my bloody god! I’m sorry to say but you are making an embarrasment of yourself here. Blood-horse magazine even had him as 6th greatest US horse ahead of Seattle Slew and Affirmed, themselves triple crown. Now, it doesn’t matter if that list is any good or not, the fact remains. You must be about the only person on this forum who does not regard Dr Fager as an all-time great, and who would have the likes of Gallant Fox, Assault, Omaha etc… ahead of him in the greatness list just because they’ve won the triple crown. And, no, you don’t need to win the Triple Crown in America to be considered an all-time great. As a matter of fact, their greatest horse, Man O’ War never did.
And, wait, so Black Caviar will only be regarded as an all-time great if she wins the Golden Jubilee and the July Cup? But, as much as I know, both of these are sprint races. I thought, that according to your criteria, a horse can only be considered an all-time great if he/she wins on a variety of distances. Sending mixed signals, are ya?
How can a horse run in the Prix Foy and the classics in the same season?
Are you just spouting undiluted bullsh*t or has it been refined?
Of course Chief Nit Picker, I meant the Prix Niel. It doesn’t really matter what races the horses run in, the form is the same whatever the races are called.
Value Is EverythingGord – when it comes to Frankel we all know who is "blinkered" mate. Your ego will never allow you to accept this horse in the way the vast majority of others do. You missed him. Never mind. We can’t all be perfect.
Joni I never missed him,
I could have
backed him at 10/1 for the Guineas as a 2yo,I watched him many times and I concluded he was a Nutcase,I was totally convinced he was a flash in the pan 2yo and that as a 3yo he would self-destruct,I thought his physique was too ‘square’ I didn’t like his head carriage,he was everything in a horse that Prince Khaled had never bred before.I was wrong about his Guineas performance,massively so,a truly awesome display!
So you did miss him then
Haha, so much for the self-awarded title of ante-post king!
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