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I always thought that the point of bumpers was to give NH horses some racecourse experience against similar types , before embarking , typically, on a hurdling career.
What is the purpose therefore in allowing ex flat horses to run in them ?. Surely it defeats the whole point of such races ?.From the BHA website:
Races designed to provide usually late-maturing, Jumps-bred horses with racecourse experience before they embark on a career over hurdles or fences. Restricted to horses that have not previously raced in any type of race except other bumpers (although you can run in a bumper having already run in a point-to-point). Only horses aged seven or younger may race in British bumpers.
That definition would seem to preclude the participation of ex-Flat horses.
Surely if it is an ex flat horse what else has it got to run in?
I would assume the loophole is any of kind race referring to NH racing. If the intention is to go jumping then that is the way in.
Some bumper horses don’t go onto jump.
Pointless perhaps but the lure of prize money means it is a good loophole to exploit.
I am surmising as I do not have the answer.I struggle to see why former winning pointers run in NHFlat races, they have proved they can jump, and race, why do they need to run in them. Surely it should be for horses who have never raced at all?
As the rules Seasider has quoted say, horses that have run on the Flat cannot run in bumpers. Therefore I’m not totally sure what the original poster means – have you got an example Coggy?
A horse with what might be called a “Flat” pedigree could run in a bumper if it had not actually run on the Flat. If the horse was doing this, it would probably indicate it was late maturing or had had injury problems. Also if there was a desire to exclude horses with “Flat” pedigrees, I think there could be issues in defining exactly which horses these were, and doing this seems unnecessary to me.
I remember Turbo Linn, who did it the other way round – started off by winning five bumpers then ended up a Group 2 winner on the Flat!
Mike
Eileendover is the most recent example and it appears Pam Sly never had any intention of running the horse over hurdles.
As stated you can’t run ex flat horses in bumpers.
But it does really annoy me that lingfield are allowed to run their NH flat races on the all weather.
Apologies as my post has obviously caused some confusion.
An example of what I was trying to question is Lady Excalibur in todays NH Bumper at Aintree.
By Galileo out of Market Forces , and had previously been in training in the Hannon yard , which can hardly be claimed to be a dual purpose yard.
How is that animal a late developing , jumps bred , individual ?Thanks Coggy. Lady Excalibur hasn’t started her racing career until she’s 4, so perhaps she has been late developing even if it might not be expected by her breeding. I do appreciate what you’re getting at, but bumpers don’t tend to pay a fortune, and I don’t think there’s much of an incentive to hold Flat horses back for them. As AndyRAC mentions, there may also be winning pointers racing in bumpers who have more experience.
What is your solution then Coggy?
What should constitute a “National Hunt bred” animal?
Should there be a panel investigating every horse that wants to run in a bumper?
Truth is there’s very little National Hunt bred individuals. ie Vast majority of sires ran on the flat… And even the few sires that did run over the jumps were in turn sired by horses who ran on the flat.
And why should it matter whose yard it had been in before running in a bumper? ie What’s the difference between being in Hannon’s yard and Nicky Henderson’s. What advantage does one have over the other? Wouldn’t they have learnt similar stuff?Unfortunately, one of the main reasons bumper horses are bumper horses is they’ve been injured and therefore coming to racing late – whether that’s having been in a jumping or flat yard. Sadly (I was told by a racecourse vet) bumper horses have a high ratio of injuries because either a previous injury reoccurs and/or new injuries that would’ve happened had they raced in their younger years take much longer to heel in older horses.
Why cut down on the number of horses going jumping anyway?
You just don’t get unraced 6 year olds running on the flat. Would be asking a lot for horses to begin flat racing at 6 years old or even 5. What do you propose doing with 4 to 6 year old “flat bred” horses?Value Is EverythingWhat should constitute a “National Hunt bred” animal?
There are so called “NH Novice Hurdles” and the race conditions are very simple: “For 4yo+ which have not run in a flat race”. This is hardly the definition of a NH bred animal.
My definition of a true NH bred animal would be: The sire has won at least a novice or any type of hurdle race and his dam is jumps raced only. I know, it’ss easier for mares to fulfill this criteria as plenty of them have only taken part in jumps races. But, if you want a “proper” NH sire, then breeders should take the risk and run him in hurdle races as well.
HOME FIRE by Frankel out of Hot Snap (Group 1 placed). Form to date – 4th in an NH Flat at Ayr and a well held 2nd in small field novice and maiden hurdles at Perth. Discuss.
What is ‘NH bred’? Hmm, probably my biggest bugbear in racing and/or breeding.
Most NH stallions, aren’t; as most have never jumped a twig. France seems to be a bit more keen on NH sires who actually raced over jumps.
I recall a quote post race from a well known trainer ” he’s a proper NH horse, not some ex flat racer”. I looked up his pedigree, by Presenting, that well known jumps performer…….Don’t know about France but here in the British Isles few Entires even compete over jumps, let alone those deemed to be prospective NH stallions
Some funny old tradition?… or a worry that the horse will not put it all in being, not unreasonably, more intent on preventing his dangly bits getting snagged in the birch?
I think we don’t see many stallions who have raced over Jumps as the owners of horses with stallion potential don’t want to risk their charge over the obstacles.
There are many reasons not to run a good flat entire over jumps.
Let’s face it, a racehorse seen as a “NH stallion prospect” is a stallion not good enough to be a flat stallion. Therefore no owner wants their stallion prospect to be seen as a “NH stallion” before it’s even had the chance of attracting flat bred mares… Unless having no pretensions of being good enough to be a flat stallion… And even then being a NH stallion without running over jumps is seen as preferential.
Running over jumps (insurance would be massive) and / or risk of being a hurdling failure (putting off breeders) are usually risks not worth taking… Unless the horse is so far down the Flat rung on ability it wouldn’t get any / much NH interest without actually running over obstacles.
ie Only reason an entire would run over jumps is if it was the only chance an owner has of his/her horse becoming a stallion.
Last horse I remember making a great success of this was the genuine flat horse Midnight Legend. Had been second in two Group 2’s – once to fellow NH sire (who did not go jumping) Presenting. Midnight Legend had only won at up to listed level. Therefore unlike the Epsom Derby third, multiple Group winner and big brute of a horse Presenting, Midnight Legend would’ve struggled to attract many NH breeders without his very successful jumping campaign.
Value Is EverythingYou’re right, Drone, it’s just a funny idea not running sires for jumpers over jumps, and they have a good record in recent Gold Cups. The French are streets ahead of us in this regard, and we have taken a backward step. In the past, many more of the top sires had jumped, including Deep Run, Over The River, Roselier. Our mare herd is losing those influences now, although Alderbrooks and others still remain. Rathbarry stand Blue Bresil, of course, and there are other jumpers around, but they can struggle for patronage. Willie Mullins had the Grade 2 chase winner a few years back (name escapes me), and he’s covering mainly sport horses.
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