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We’ll have no pocket talk here, ginger!
I lost in every race with the added insult of changing my mind at the last minute about a tenner each way on a 50/1 winner. Do you see me moaning? No. It’s why I love racing.
I started this thread
before
the race started Prof; so it can hardly be called "pocket talk".
Value Is EverythingPathetic!
Pathetic indeed.
What else could the track do? Call it off? I’m sure the race goers would be delighted. What if you were there yourself? You’d trip over yourself getting to the internet to complain.We’ll have no pocket talk here, ginger!
I lost in every race with the added insult of changing my mind at the last minute about a tenner each way on a 50/1 winner. Do you see me moaning? No. It’s why I love racing.
I started this thread
before
the race started Prof; so it can hardly be called "pocket talk".
You added to it with great vehemence AFTER the race was over. Nuff said. Pocket, pocket, pocket all the way!
I’ll be back again for more misery tomorrow.
Are you serious? The draw is of little consequence, particularly in this race. There are too many other factors involved and if you’re going on the draw to influence you, you maybe should be ignoring the race if you’re letting a factor of such minor influence lead you.
If you think the draw is of little consequence in the Chester Cup SBerry, there is not much hope for you in the betting stakes.
Look at the results from this century:
Bangalore 4, 3, 17, 5, 15 Winner made all, with the two badly drawn Chester specialists Fantasy Hill and Rainbow High.
Fantasy Hill’s race first three 7, 8 and 6.
Rainbow High first two 5 and 4.
Hugs Dancer 2 and 3.
Anak Pekan 4 and 18.
Anak Pekan 15 and 8. Winner got over to race up with the pace.
Admiral 1 and 2. Winner made all.
Greenwich Meantime 16, 13 11. Winner a Chester specialist.
Bullwark 11 and 13.
Daraahem 4, 8, 7, 6 All four single figure draws.
Mamlook drawn 5. Apart from the second Chester specialist Tastahil (who got over to race prominently) the first eaight home were single figures.
Overturn 1 and 3. Winner made all.This year: Ile De Re 13, 8, 19, 5, 15. A totally different race.
Of course there are other things to consider like stamina and effectiveness on ground… But draw and racing prominently are vitally important in most Chester Cups. Unlike other courses, the constantly turning track means the few infront can slow the pace down, so as to have a big advantage. Those behind can’t make it up until some tire, because they’d lose too much ground and energy going wide.
With a flag start, it meant horses who were used to getting away fast from a standing (rather than a stalls) start have a big advantage. Ile De Re and Overturn have hurdle experience so are used to standing starts. On the other hand you’ve got Shubaat, inexperienced, raced only 5 times, all with starting stalls. Shubaat has either led, raced prominently or tracked the pace in every race. Highly unlikely to get away with the likes of Overturn from a standing start, especially with a claimer on board. Fox did his best, but the tapes went up with Shubaat a little behind. Most horses need a race to go a certain way and unable to race prominently Shubaat did not seem to want to know when racing in rear. Also not the only prominent racer to get away slowly from a flag start, a totally different skill to getting away quickly from stalls.
Value Is EverythingWould echo Mike’s comments about other races less suitable for flag starts. Anyone remember the temple started by flag at Epsom because of the stall handlers strike. A mockery of a shambles if ever there was one.
Admittedly the draw advantage at Epsom’s straight course means it is also difficult to make up ground. Fair point David. But I’d say today’s flag start had more effect on the start than other sprint courses with no or little draw advantage; where horses can make up ground earlier.
Value Is EverythingPathetic!
Pathetic indeed.
What else could the track do? Call it off? I’m sure the race goers would be delighted. What if you were there yourself? You’d trip over yourself getting to the internet to complain.No problem with the race being run Pajo, just the decision should’ve been made earlier. To give punters time to react.
Value Is EverythingHad I had time to go through the form again, I probably would’ve backed the first two.
This has to be irony, yes?
Mike
As opposed to the 4 mentioned in a different thread!!If I’d had more time David, I could have got out of some bets who had now been
disadvantaged
and backed others with a big
advantage
. A flag start changed the race completely.
So you don’t think those with experience of standing starts had an advantage then David? In a race that favours prominent runners.
Value Is EverythingHad I had time to go through the form again, I probably would’ve backed the first two.
This has to be irony, yes?
Mike
No, and I did say "probably". Not many of the runners had experience of standing starts. With a race that favours prominent runners they had a big advantage, always going to get away quicker than most.
Value Is EverythingNo problem with the race being run Pajo, just the decision should’ve been made earlier. To give punters time to react.
The dangers became apparent when the stalls were being put in place.
No problem with the race being run Pajo, just the decision should’ve been made earlier. To give punters time to react.
The dangers became apparent when the stalls were being put in place.
If that is the case then fair enough. But I don’t see why it was not obvious they had a problem and punters should’ve been warned it was a distinct possibility.
Of course if I was a conspiracy theorist, I’d suggest they might have not warned the betting public to get as much levy as possible from D. Punter.
Value Is EverythingAnd what’s the nonsense about jumps horses getting off quicker? Jumpers run over 2 miles or more and are hardly known for their sprint starts.
Anyway the winner got away closer to the back than the front.You staked your money and you took your chance. And lost. It’s one bet out of many. Move on. You look silly.
Are you serious? The draw is of little consequence, particularly in this race. There are too many other factors involved and if you’re going on the draw to influence you, you maybe should be ignoring the race if you’re letting a factor of such minor influence lead you.
Interesting theory. Wrong, but interesting. I’d have agree with OP, the start seemed rushed with little consideration to "Draw" numbers. The Grand National start seemed more organised to me! Today it seemed like a free for all of sorts, with Varian’s well drawn (c/f) jolly starting about 50 yards behing the leaders. He clearly wouldn’t have struggled the judge, but its the principle i am referring to.
What if the animal had lost a neck? His backers would be justifiabally upset surely having backed a very well drawn horse.
There was no way they could have started it with the horses exactly in stalls order. That’s why they have stalls: to organise them properly because they can’t do it themselves!
Over that distance I can’t believe it would have made much difference how they started, as long as no-one got a real jump start. It was a pretty level start, and they had no alternative, other than to call off the race, which would have caused a hell of a lot more fuss.I suggest people who think the draw has no effect in the Chester Cup check previous results prior to commenting.
And what’s the nonsense about jumps horses getting off quicker? Jumpers run over 2 miles or more and are hardly known for their sprint starts.
Anyway the winner got away closer to the back than the front.You staked your money and you took your chance. And lost. It’s one bet out of many. Move on. You look silly.
Those who look silly are the ones who genuinely believe the draw has no advantage in The Chester Cup.I believe this Class 2 Handicap is probably the most draw influenced race of the whole year and punters historically consider the draw more than any other race,today that crucial edge was taken away the moment ‘Overturn’ started before anything else, a horse well known over the jumps ‘Pajo’ for his sprint start as you put it!
I’ve betOverturn
more times than anyone on here,I even said he’d overcome his nightmare draw in the Northumberland plate because he had ground and weight conditions to suit,today he didn’t and had he came out of box 8 he would never have been able to get the softest lead possible so I gave him little chance,had he won I would not have been happy with the way he did it at all.Now had I took the 14’s on the machine and he’d won I would be saying that was the flookiest victory ever,I’d be saying i cant believe he got away with it and nobodys questioning the tactical start from nearer pretend box 3 than 8!
I suggest people who think the draw has no effect in the Chester Cup check previous results prior to commenting.
I did since 1994 for horses placed in top 3. I get 18 placed from stalls 1-6, 16 placed from stalls 7-12 and 14 placed from stalls 13-18.
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