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I don’t know, I can’t say, the only people who can say are those people who are in that situation at that given time. Ideally, support and therapy are better than drugs of any form (including alcohol), but this is not always available and at times of great stress or distress, we do not always think or act logically.
Cocaine and alcohol have very different effects on the body and mind of the consumer. Traces of cocaine (or substances indicating the previous presence of cocaine) which can be detected several days later do not necessarily impair the function or reactions of the individual.
I think there is a lot more to say on the legality issue. The whole argument about legal and illegal is an interesting one, but one based on arbitrary historical decisions and not necessarily reflective of balanced, objective judgement. Oft said, but in this case immensely relevant, if alcohol were a new drug discovered tomorrow, the effects, side-effects and potential risks it posed would mean it would be instantly banned (if this were possible).
I still don’t feel comfortable with your notion that taking alcohol somehow makes you superior to someone who takes a different drug to make themselves feel better. I can see this is basically linked to our views on the relative importance of not breaking any law and I think this is just something we will probably always disagree on.
In spite of all this, I genuinely expect that these positive drugs results are probably more to do with a lifestyle choice than a stress-induced addiction; I have never really warmed to Fallon regardless of how good a jockey he is (or was), and essentially feel no sympathy for him now.
NB : I have never suggested that you had drunk anything this evening (8 cans of Grolsch or whatever) – that would be a comment worthy only of the playgrounds and (wherever possible) I try not to descend to that level nowadays.[/color:3cgw5cd8]
Cocaine, on the other hand, is reported to stay in your system for weeks, and therefore the abuser of this ILLEGAL drug is always in danger of not being focussed for many weeks after the abuse.
It may be traceable within your system for weeks, but the actual effects of cocaine are short term and typically disappear within a couple of hours (often quicker).
Obviously, long-term abuse/addiction would have an ongoing and detrimental effect on your day-to-day life, but the same is true for alcohol.
Just to add,
alcohol is legal… And given the example I gave (drinking 8 cans in your own bedroom), it doesn’t do anybody any harm. Drugs on the other hand, are illegal, stay in the system far longer than alcohol, and given that the drug user is in contact with other living things, he/she can affect other people or animals.
Like I said above, do I need to say anymore?
Sorry, no, alcohol does the consumer harm (even in your own bedroom). It is addictive and can lead to poor personal judgement and violent behaviour in the short term, and have serious long-term health implications. In these respects, it is not significantly different from cocaine.
By the same measure, ‘drugs’ taken in your own bedroom or in a ‘safe environment’ don’t tend to do harm to other people (or indeed animals).
Alcohol IS a drug. I’m happy for you to be an anti-drugs campaigner, but what are you really saying? What are you campaigning against and why?
I still don’t feel comfortable with your notion that taking alcohol somehow makes you superior to someone who takes a different drug to make themselves feel better. I can see this is basically linked to our views on the relative importance of not breaking any law and I think this is just something we will probably always disagree on.
Thanks for your reply NV.
I never said that you had suggested I had drunk 8 cans this evening, I was merely pointing out that I hadn’t had a drink tonight.
Anyway, regarding the above. I never said that drinking alcohol makes anyone superior to taking drugs. But I will say it now. Anyone who prefers a legal substance, such a alcohol in their own home, rather than take an illegal substance, knowing they have to control a horse in the near future, is far superior in my opinion.
To be honest, I can’t really believe I’m having to defend people who don’t take drugs against people who do. I’m off to bed now. Shame on you all who have had a few beers tonight instead of taking a few raps of cocaine
Mike
ps: NV, I’m an anti-drugs campaigner because I love kids, I campaign against drugs being widely available in the communtity – and as for why I campaign against it – well belive it or not, I don’t want kids growing up on drugs – amazing eh!
NV,
Simple question. Would you like any of your immediate family to come home and say, "I’ve had 8 cans in the bedroom, slept it off and did nobody harm" or "I’ve took cocaine, rode a horse, and got caught".
I’m not out to make enemies here. But please realise I’m not saying taking drugs or taking alcohol is any better or worse than the other. What I am saying is that drinking 8 cans in the comfort of your own bedroom, and sleeping it off, is a far better proporsition than snorting cocaine and riding horses within the next few days.
Mike
Shame your thread is wasted somewhat Cavelino after a good post from you but it’s now turned hilarious
Dear Mike
If you got help did they tell you that everyone is different,that what works for one may not work for another,that somehow feeling that you are better than another is hardly a "getting better" response to any of life’s problems? Were you judged by those who helped you?Did they wonder how a wonderful person like you could have gotten into such a sad condition or did they remain non judgmental and support your efforts to regain some self respect and dignity?
Did they encourage you to do likewise?Dear Mike
If you got help did they tell you that everyone is different,that what works for one may not work for another,that somehow feeling that you are better than another is hardly a "getting better" response to any of life’s problems? Were you judged by those who helped you?Did they wonder how a wonderful person like you could have gotten into such a sad condition or did they remain non judgmental and support your efforts to regain some self respect and dignity?
Did they encourage you to do likewise?Andy,
They told me exactly that. They told me that they can help anyone from any walk of life.
The problem they have is that Kieren Fallon has already been banned for cocaine abuse, and yet NEVER SEEKED HELP
So where they told me I was brave, and they wouldn’t be judgmental, they also told me that I am a million times better than the people who don’t come to them and chose to get into more touble by carrying on with their addiction
Mike
Dear Mike
Better off, of course. But better, I cannot judge and neither should you.In amongst the bookmaker "specials", the tipping line adverts, the meaningless statistics, the last 3 runs, the trainer pap etc.., lies one of the most vindictive and hypocritical articles I have ever read. You’ve certainly outdone yourself this time Mr Down.
"A two-time coke abuser", "Fallon is a man who recreationally stuffs his salary up his nose or he has a serious drug problem." –
-Fallon’s first ban was for an amount "so low, according to an expert witness, Dr Michael Lewis, "as to admit that the possibility that the test result arose solely as a consequence of environmental contact" – but the serious status of the offence means a ban is a no-option consequence, regardless of cause or circumstance."
and
"Over the course of his long riding career, Kieren Fallon has been tested by authorities all over the world and the results have always been negative. In this case, only trace levels were detected and these are considerably lower than generally accepted thresholds for positive results"
The current sample if reports are to be believed contain traces of pure cocaine. The way the the human body metabolises cocaine makes it impossible for it to exist in a pure state in urine. That makes the sample open to the possibility of contamination and in any event no results of the contents of the B sample have been returned as yet. But no Mr Down you have already tried and convicted him guilty till proven innocent the very charge you railed against in the very same article. You are a hypocrite."Pathetic Spectacle" are words you use in your article. Mr Down you looked a pathetic spectacle to me a few weeks ago on C4’s Morning Line, in my opinion under the influence of some substance, a dishevelled, barely coherent lump as your exercised your profession. I’ve never seen or heard of Kieren Fallon turn up for work in that state. You are a hypocrite.
"For all their fashionable status in certain sections of society, Class A drugs rightly do not play well with the public." – Another factual inaccuracy if your referring to Ireland. Unfortunately here cocaine use is fashionable in EVERY village, town and city in Ireland, its fashionable within EVERY section of society. You think people here link the emotion of the HEROIN horrors of the 90’s and the death of Veronica Guerin to how they feel about Kieren Fallon?! Mr. Down you are on a different planet.
Mr. Down, does being a wine addict make you a better class of addict than other addicts? Are you applying the English class system to the human condition of addiction?
Speaking of the human condition I would ask people who are so quick to condemn the man to consider the following.
Think about how you’d feel if your employer in your chosen profession had prevented you practising that profession for 18 months, had taken an action against you in the highest criminal court in the land for sending a few ambiguous text messages to a couple of people they also had a problem with or for "the crime" of sharing a taxi with but not speaking to somebody else they also had a problem with. To put it in some type of context the mobile phone rule carries a 500 quid fine for a first time offence.
And that’s the extent of it, this man has been put through this ordeal because of a few text messages and a taxi ride. On a human justice scale in a western society it beggars belief. Think about that before you’d have him "clear off" or as its been written on this forum "shot in the head"
Similar legal ordeals in other professions have killed people (British Airways Pilots). Is it any wonder he might as a human being with an addictive condition have felt the overwhelming need to escape from it for an hour or two. Fallon has spoken of not having slept properly for 3 years and of his "enormous personal pain". Can any of you know how you’d react in similar circumstances?
Has a six time champion in any other sport been treated before any verdict was delivered ‘like a terrorist" or made to feel "like a criminal". Well has there?
I didn’t hear all the whiter than white self appointed moral guardians of horseracing call for the heads of Chris Antley, Terry Biddlecombe, Bobby Beasley, Steve Cauthen, Walter Swinburn, Timmy Murphy, John Murtagh, Keith Dalgleish, Joe Fanning, Dean Gallagher, Andrash Starke, Andrew Findlay, Jerry Bailey, Pat Day, Pat Valenzuela, Frankie Dettori, when they had problems with addiction, being over the limit at work or substance abuse.
Fallon’s not perfect, he’s far from it, but show me someone who is. His move back to a more settled lifestyle in Tipp, his counselling and admittance that he has addiction problems at least show he’s trying to be a better man. This cocaine issue has only reared its ugly head at a time of incredible and totally unjustified strain for the man, and hopefully please God he’ll get the continued help and support of the people who have admirably stood by him.
One thing is for certain, he’ll always be welcome on an Irish racecourse, and be a hero to many followers of the sport everywhere.
And finally Mr Down, I wish you well with your addiction, you’ll probably need it.
Fallon is trying to be a better man? Who are you trying to kid?
If Fallon was trying to be a better man he wouldn’t be running with the types he ended up in court with nor would he be back up on drug abuse charges. If you are making a real effort to clean yourself up you steer well clear of the highflying types and mix with good decent people who can help you.
He has had years to quit and by all accounts hasn’t.
What a fine example he is to the young up and coming Jockeys and children of today. Just what the UK needs another Superstar making the headlines for drugs.
Lets all be nice to poor old Fallon and show kids and young Joockeys it’s allright to take drugs cos we won’t be too hard on you.
It would make me sick the amount of times I have heard someone make comparisons between drink and drugs in an effort to justify drug abuse. That’s just one bullshit argument and strictly for the birds.
He has not only tarnished the name of racing he has given no thought whatsoever of the impression someone of his staus can have on young people.
Saying he is not only one changes nothing……..we are not talking about Kenny Dalgleish or Frankie here……that’s another story.
The man in the Headlines at the moment is Fallon and if found guilty should be banned from going anywhere near a horse in any shape or form.
He is just bad news and has had more sympathy already than he desrves……….time to put him out to pasture
Dear Fistof fury
I don’t know much about fists but you certainly exposed your hand when you implied that those in court with Kieren were bad people.In fact none of them were found guilty of anything! But since you have already judged them that did not matter. I wonder how many others you so cavalierly judge as you go about your daily life.
I wonder do you have a fondness for one vice over another since you seem eager to rank them also.(maybe letting yourself off the hook that way)I bet more lives are lost to drunken driving such as our noble trainer xxxx was found guilty of than we know of .Yet we dare not throw the big wigs of racing out with the bath water from Clare!
What hogwash about role models.How many kids watch horse racing for goodnessake.How many do you believe could tell you who Kieren is.Only the corner boys and ne’r-do-well kids who play pool and back horses,smoke and drink behind the wall.Kids who will grow up like I did learning about life from the school of hard knocks.
No Mr Fistof Fury don’t judge Kieren until you have walked a mile in his shoes.But no Mr Down you have already tried and convicted him guilty till proven innocent the very charge you railed against in the very same article. You are a hypocrite.
"Pathetic Spectacle" are words you use in your article. Mr Down you looked a pathetic spectacle to me a few weeks ago on C4’s Morning Line, in my opinion under the influence of some substance, a dishevelled, barely coherent lump as your exercised your profession. I’ve never seen or heard of Kieren Fallon turn up for work in that state. You are a hypocrite.
We can only be thankful, CR, that character assassination coming from you is so rigorously evidence-based, thereby avoiding any suggestion of hypocrisy on your part.
Good post CR .. I think people who don’t really do anything are on a sticky wicket when it comes to critising those that do. I tend to regard people like Down the same as I would a book critic. His is only an opinion, no more or less important than mine, or the little old ladies waiting for the bus at the end of the road. If he doesn’t have anything nice to say, he should really just keep his trap shut.
Mikkey, the drugs/drink thing is a joke. I don’t do either but I’ve had a go at both in the past. If you drink a lot, you are a druggie, its the exact same thing, unusually I find myself agreeing with NV.
Is cocaine performance enhancing? Probably not…..although you wouldnt want to see a rider riding under the influence of it. But then again same applies to alcohol
Is cocaine illegal? well yes
but so is drunk driving. would a jockey get an 18 month ban for that? Doubt it….
And which is more dangerous? which is the more serious crime?
Alistair Down preaching about adicition problems is akin to Fallon giving marriage advice to couples!
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