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There are also a lot of decent small trainers who dont weigh there horse.
Anyway, horses can continue developing for years so it would get very confusing to use weights in the same way as we do with greyhounds. Obvioulsy the best way currently is to see the horse yourself.
SHL
Horses are NOT machines.
They have problems. minds of their own, events unfold in the race that conspire against you, such as pace,and even changing stride can cost a horse a race.
I fing it absolutely incerdible to believe that punters think it is possible to land a gamble easily. It is still just that…a gamble.
It is probably trainers faults for giving the impression that they can, to entice owners that are not actually interested in horses.
Now we have an atmosphere which forbids the passing on of "inside knowledge" and therefore Fahey’s comments are understandable. That is the fault of whinging punters. A trainer CANNOT know beyond doubt his horse will win. it is impossible. The horse could just decide…"nah…not bothered today."
Our horse runs in a 3 year old hurdle at pardubice in a couple of weeks. I may back him if the trainer says he is working well, doesn’t have much opposition, likes the ground…whatever. Then I take my chance. it IS known as a gambling yard but it is a long way from the reality.
I know the yard’s horses are currently coming into form.<br>The stables’ owner likes a bet. The trainer doesn’t bet. <br>You do not know how prepared the opposition is, whether he will act on certain ground he is unraced on, etc.
I have absolutelt no interest in owning a horse to land a gamble. Anyone that does as a prority is at some point going to come a cropper…so they must like the high of the gamble and not the winning of money.
That is the problem with some punters. They do not like to lose, then point fingers.
The racing weight argument is a nonsense. Some horses need to be carrying a bit of condition, and some, never mind how hard you work them, do not lose weight until they have raced a few times. Some trainers use rigorous training to achieve weight results quickly…but you take a massive risk of the horse getting fed up when you do that. Again it depends on the trainer and owner and what he wants from the horse, and whether the horse is up to it, and whether he approves of that regime..some don’t mind, some do.
We worked and worked a horse once but could never get weight off her. They are not machines; and have differing metabolisms.
You risk breaking horses down with this mentality. Some can take it, others can’t. Now for the owner that wants or needs quick results that is fine….but they do risk a short racing career.
But personally? A horse to me is a pet…and I will NEVER<br>accept running him to punters orders. A punter does not put hay in his net.
Our current horse needs time. He will not be flogged to win..so take your chance. HOWEVER…he will be trying…always…he will never be pulled. There is a huge difference…but punters do not see that and I blame the Jockey Club for not explaining that.
One thing is for absolutely sure. Bet on other sports if you like….but form works out better in NH racing than any other sport.
In every jumps race you can see that only a select few can win…even at festivals. the trick is working out which contenders…and the market is not always the best at working that out . Look at Two of the last three races today at perth. An idjut could see that two of the Twiston Davies horses were the only ones capable of winning on soft….so why were they not long odds on? Not that I am complaining mind….but if I was a big punter i would have nailed my shirt on them winning…and even then they could have fallen…so waht is certain?
A punter should have the pleasure…as I do…of sharing in the glory of when a horse wins…whether as an excercise of intellect, or because they feel something for the horse.
If it comes down to racing horses just for punters to win money then that is what will eventually destroy racing.<br>The bunny brigade would have  a point if that is what it came down to. Many nations race with little or no betting, and you cannot land big gambles with tote monopolies.
The nature of the game has little to do with betting for most people involved professionally. Including the jockeys.
And you all…as I do…seem to admire Paul Nicholls for his integrity. But if you think he, or the Barbers, or many of his owners are remotely interested in gambling or punters…you are off your heads. Philip Hobbs won’t even have punters as owners.
Horse Racing exists primarily for flat as a breeding excercise….. that is not for the money either. It is actually an interest in trying to produce a good horse, by playing with genes. Even the naming part of it is enjoyable…for example, you can see the person who named the most outrageously named horse of all time, "Donnysnookercentre" had no interest in breeding!
Some friends bred a very nice horse once. Nobody even ever tried to race him…though I think he would have been good. He was eventually sold for eventing, but could have made a flat horse. This was the best part. We were all there at his birth. he was gorgeous. The mother was a dual purpose horse "Nuintara" and the stallion "Theatrical charmer".<br>Arguments raged for about three years on what to name him. Part of the reason he never raced. meanwhile, the yard kids were already calling him the name that my girlfriend wanted, and eventually everyone accpeted it.  "Tara" was the house in "Gone with the Wind" , and Clark Gable was known throughout hollywood as the Charmer. So it was clear. the horse was named "Rhett Butler".  Now where is the gambling…or come to that the racing…come in? Horse people do not do it for that, They race because the horses like it. Don’t you get it? We don’t care if they are succesful…at the level of looking after them it doesn’t matter. they all need the same love and care. Where does the punters money, or the money from breeding…come in?
Then jumps racing is different again. Most of the horses are bought not bred. Homebreds are notoriously bad because you end up breeding from your beloved grey hunter mare who finshed 3rd in a point once. But people like the Barbers would race horses if there was no prizemoney, and no betting, and Paul Nicholls would still be as ambitious for glory. They are just as likely to be seen at a point as at cheltenham; and enjoying it rather more sometimes. And you know what? horses like See more Business would still command a loyal legion of followers. <br>It is all about an incurable love affair with horses.
It makes me sad…and a little angry…that punters do not see that side of it, and end up thinking everyone is having it off without telling anyone.
People like Fallon are part of that love affair with horses culture. If he is corrupted…it is because he has been over friendly with punters. Not because he is one.
Punters put the corruption…where it is…into racing; and the best way to straighten it would be to stop the absurdity of being able to win on a losing horse if you ask me.
A thousand of us or more will go to Pardubice in a couple of weeks. betting is in none of our minds. Then the point to point season will beckon, and we will wonder if the eddie the eagle of racing chris Penycate will mange to ride a winner, and who can get local glory and a fairytale horse by saving something from the knackers yard. Hell…someone may even manage to have it off by having £20 on a 1/3 shot. And maybe…just maybe…Nicholls will bring something over the bridge which could end up a gold cup winner, or evan Williams missus may unleash something that could win the foxhunters. Everyone will freeze, drink a tot, wipe their noses, huddle round a clapped ouit landrover, eat a bit of Sue Ansteys cake, Watch ex steelworker Joe Price boot home a winner and wonder when wll retire, see the next Christian williams, see the hounds that have Glyndower’s hounds blood, pour onto the course for the kids pony race, watch Tom faulkener trying to impress the girls with his daredevil riding, listen to dai Williams tales about his Virginia trip, and the bookies go home making £100 each.
THAT is racing. Where is the corruption? It gets bigger attendances than all weather flat racing every time.
One example . Whitbread day. Evan Williams missus had runners at the local point. They had also snt horses to Sandown. they had one in the flat versus jumps jockeys race (which won today actually). It was a bit backward for jumps , and so they just put it in that race to give it some experience. They had no idea who would ride it..and it ended up being ridden by Mick Kinane. Cath thought it had no chance, but her dad had a fiver each way on it. I had £2 each way on it . Cath told me I was daft as her dad and how could we waste money? She nearly fainted when it won at 25/1. There were all sorts of allegations that the yard had landed a coup and it was utter nonsense. The yard were far more interested in the pony race at the point.
<br>(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 12:16 am on Sep. 22, 2006)<br>
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 12:32 am on Sep. 22, 2006)
toys out the pram time again
if anybody thinks this does not go ahead they are deranged, particularly if they follow horse racing to any degree, however small
i could also name a trainer who does this and name horses that won and horses where advice was ‘it won’t be winning this time’
i could go into more detail but don’t see that it will achieve anything helpful
it is one thing ‘playing the game’ within horse racing according to the rules and trying to get one over the handicapper, another thing entirely in blatant fraud and i accept sometimes the edges of the grey area can be hard to find
ggd correctly points out that at the end of a day it is still a gamble, no matter how carefully a trainer might think he has planned for a race
is smp cheating when lining up his stayers for nice little handicap marks by giving them 3 or 4 inappropriate runs as 2 or 3 yos, or is he playing the game with racing and the handicapper ?
as for punters having a right to know, that is a bit rich and i can’t fault a trainer’s comments when he said if the owner of the horse doesn’t want any of the stable’s other owners to know about the plan, then the trainer will not be able to tell those other owners, let alone the general public – gamblers sometimes forget they are just gambling and get unduly upset if they think someone knows something they don’t – that’s the way of the world, isn’t it ?
Its not about a "right to know" as much as sensible PR for a sport which needs it…
If trainers are going to treat punters as if its "none of their business" then punters will simply drift away. There are alternatives these days…
Quote: from EC
It’s changing..racing is getting left behind..partly due to this "I know ..you don’t" factor…amongst other things.
<br>EC,
I reckon that one of the ‘other things’ and a very significant one is the way our education system and racing have diverged.
Anyone on here with teenage kids (or even older) will be aware that the concept of a –
Rock of Gibraltar 2-y-old who cost 80,000 guineas and is carrying 8st 10lbs today over 7 furlongs at odds of 15-8
isn’t going to mean much when you were taught the metric and decimal systems and didn’t have to understand them that well to get a pass at GCSE.
And since there’s nothing in the curriculum that teaches analytical skills, studying the form for a horse race isn’t likely to make much appeal either.
I was dull enough as a teenager to spend my Sunday afternoon tackling the Observer crossword and/or chess problems, but I can’t imagine I would have done so if there’d been a computer and a digital TV in my room.
I have five nephews and two nieces, aged 18 to 35 – the youngest pair like a day out at the races, but they don’t bet and nor do the others – by the time they’ve paid the mortgage or rent and forked out a monthly ransom to Vodafone or Orange, they’re skint anyway.
The world has moved on and I don’t think there’s any way racing could hope to keep up – the pop concerts work for attracting a crowd, but as the bookies will tell you, that crowd doesn’t bet and it doesn’t come back for more either.
In simple terms, racing requires more than the attention span typical of the MTV generation – so all credit to the few youngsters on here that we both know have made a big effort to acquire an understanding. But we also know they aren’t normal!!
AP
Quote: from apracing on 7:49 pm on Sep. 22, 2006[br]
<br>……And since there’s nothing in the curriculum that teaches analytical skills, studying the form for a horse race isn’t likely to make much appeal either……
AP <br>
AP
My wife recounts a story from her schooldays of a teacher who used the racing form, presumably from the Sporting Life or Sporting Chronicle, to teach his class. Somehow I can’t see that this would happen today!
Rob
There’s no need to be defeatist, chaps. Football was dead and buried in 1989.
Admitting to having a bet on Saturday was tantamount to holiness, compared to revealing you were a football fan.
They changed the image. The environment football  is played in. They boosted the money considerably. They sorted out a major TV deal. They changed the way people looked at football and attracted a new wave, a different type of supporter. ÂÂÂ
Same with cricket and 20/20. They even changed the rules of the sport in that case.
As Zorro said in a piece the other day, no woman ever refuses a day at the races and the Ladies Day intiatives have worked well.
Big gangs of lads bring much needed money to the courses. And if only 10% of those stick a yankee on each day following the day out, then that has worked too.
There are ways and means of marketing to the next generation.  I see plenty of kids playing football in the summer at Nottingham races and they all stop to watch the horses race past the rails. There’s interest there. It’s a question of catching it. ÂÂÂ
I stand by my comments on RF earlier though. His lack of advance PR about Fonthill Roads chances was a big negative in marketing terms. And I’m starting to believe that prosecuting KF to retirement or exile is counter-productive in marketing terms too. ÂÂÂ
Least said, soonest mended?
I did when a supply teacher once and had to teach maths and the sidding teacher hadn’t left work. Maths!:o  Me!
Luckily they were doing probability, and it was the monday after the grand national. They all said it was the best maths lesson ever. The gilrs loved it becuse it was maths with ponies, the so called thick kids loved it because their dads and they had bet on it. The middle class "intelligensia" were completely lost. I loved that 2 hours and it proved to me Education is culturally prejudiced to middle class drones. The kids I taught, 22 years ago; STILL talk about it.
I goot into trouble because a parent complained I was endorsing cruelty to animals. A fine criticism from a parent who was bribing teachers to give her kids better grades. That is what I meant by corruption in teaching….can’t go into detail for obvious reasons.  I also has regular bollickings for smoking and being in the bookies at luchtime and playing poker with lunchtime detention kids.
But you are correct. The MTV generation are too thick to understand betting. <br>they are also too brainwashed into believing that racing is cruel. <br>And parents do not inyeract with their kids these days. If they take them to the races they stcik them on bouncy castles instead of taking them to the paddock and getting a slap and told "BEHOLD! Arkle…the greatest horse in the world" as we used to get. Our dad taught us how to write a 5p yankee when we were old enough to pick up a pen, and our mother read us Kipling and tool us for walks in the country to see the hunt.  You let your kids wach MTV and keep them occupied with i pods and you get what you ask for. BUY THEM A PONY….that will also have the additional effect of making you realise it is IMPOSSIBLE to fix races. Stop abdicating your responsibility…only the parents can pass on traditions… and leaving them at the mercy of lowest common denominator schools and commerce….because that is what MTV is; and mcDonalds sponsored schoolbooks. My advice as an ex teacher if you have kids is get em out of there.
The only way to address the issue is for the jockey club to have schools education officers and for the government to insist on rural studies for urban kids….they should be taught to ride, much out , learn to care for animals properly, see what really happens on a hunt instead of the utter crap teachers and media tell them, and be taught that the wild places are to be treaed carefully and not for them to mountain bike in.<br>fat chance of Labour doing that.
Racing is at its best when it is a spectacle. That needs to be sold to the young public…..the betting interst will follow.
My brother ‘s first words were "Persian War" as I recall.
We had a three times gold cup winner and the industry couldn’t sell it because they were too hung up on selling betfair and spread betting, and trying to attract punters instead of REAL animal lovers.
Our local pointing scene is quite strong, and we have young people coming into it all the time. Wales will have a very strong jumps racing in 10 years time. Our principal trainers will make an impact this year.
Likewise Pardubice have quite a young horse savvy crowd.
The interest MUST come before the betting otherwise the lowest common denominator will come into play…the fruit machine and the lottery.
I said to a kid the other day buying  lottery tickets that "woudn’t it be a great thing if you could use your head to predict the numbers?" he said that wasn’t possible. I said it is with horse racing; and told him how to do a six horse accumulator, and trebles 20x20p etc.<br>He won £74 straight away for a tenner. In four years of doing a tenner a week on the lottery he had won a tenner ONCE.
And DON’T ever tell me that steepledowns is better than the real thing…there is NO form to go on. That is why the bookies like it.
Oh and Clivex…go ahead…bet on alternatives. Ignore the fact that the evarage punter in Wales and the West country will again have it off at the bookies expense JUST by following in form jumps yards. THAT is why the bookies want you to bet on other things; they must REALLY hare peter bowen  right now. I expect thay had aright hammering yesterdau on Twiston’s too.
It all there if you look. It is the ONE sport, that a punter who does his homework…including equine psychology…can have the bookies over time and time again.
Me and Alstair Down had a right little punt on Registana, 1/2 on in Czech, and 3/1 against in the UK, when she won the velka. <br>Since hoody has been busy with other stuff they haven’t got horsemen studying…so their bookmaking is crap. The bookies AT the races know their stuff…they win off each other punting now the big money has gone from the game. (Cheers Mr Blair…a fat lot of good it’s going to do the Chancellor off shore. It was better going around black and eventually getting banked by someone straight and then you get your tax).
11/8 11/8 and 5/4 about twistons at Perth…HOW DID THEY OFFER THOSE ODDS ON CONFIRMED MUDLARKS AGAINST FIRM GROUND HORSES?
yeah…go on….bet on ya football teams instead. I tried betting on all the form teams in accumulators for months and lost loads.
Fallon is innocent. It is punters and high street bookies and the media and govenment who are corrupt (How come footballers don’t get prison sentences for mucking about on planes?)
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 10:10 pm on Sep. 22, 2006)
<br>(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 10:19 pm on Sep. 22, 2006)<br>
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 10:46 pm on Sep. 22, 2006)
Would you also recommend urban studies for rural kids, whereby the tweed-clad sons and daughters of farmers learn how to flip burgers, hot-wire cars and hang out with hoodies on street corners?
Perhaps they could be introduced to some urbanites who oppose hunting and are able to articulate their views, rather than believing in the "utter crap" that the Countryside Alliance and various other reactionary throwbacks try to peddle about people who hold such a stance.
Please could you keep you answer to less than 3,500 words?
Thank you ÂÂÂ
Maybe Irish rural kids should be taught how to behave on planes!<br>I have given strong argument defending hunting and this question remains utterly unanswered as it always does. You CANNOT win an argument with an opinion based on prejudice and propaganda instead of fact.
A rational person would know …thankfully so do conservationists (see my post about leopard number control on big game reserves giving cheetah a massive and much neede boost) …that what I am telling you is fully supported and TRUE….and thakfully the philosiphy of incentice conservation…is sweeping the world, liberating native peoples,  and has the full support of real conservation bodies.
The antis have completely failed to come up with a method of fox contol that is:<br>1. discriminate…it only targets the weak, sick and old male fox (stronger scent just like dirty old men) who are the ones that are responsible for attacks on livestock(can’y hack catching rabbits any more) <br>2. Is faster than a hound death. An animal wounded by a bullet is going to suffer and last season some hunts were out beyomd midnight to ensure that wounded fox were put out of their misery. There is NO such thing as a wounded fox when the hounds get it they kill it every time unless for whatever reason the huntsman intervenes (good fox, wrong target animal ect). Poison is disgusting and If I was in pwer I would have every urban council in prison for animal cruelty for the utterly <br>APALLING treatment of a beautiful, social and highly intelligent mamml…the rat…and all the animals up the food chain after it. Hypocrisy beyond belief. And that is holocaustic proportions. The GLC alone kill more foxes with poison than all the hunts in the UK put together….allegedly 9 000. But it is MILLIONS of rats.
No answer about that is there? never is. THANKFULLY, thanks to the Mongolians…we have an answer. It isn’t quite as quick, and i don’t know what is going to happen when people realise the fox is dropped from a great height to its death, but it’s better than guns and poison:
http://www.mongoliaaltaiexpeditions.com/
yes they hunt wolf with them so a mere fox is no problem .<br>Flush the fox with the hounds and let rip the eagle; or eagle owl.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4255614.stm
Oh and remember that is the BBC and the hawking people they have consulted clearly are not experts. the fact that they say that it isn’t a good idea to hunt with eagle on horses negates 10 000 years of mogolian mounted hunting experience. It is cobblers.
Thre are problems and it isn’t ideal….but the ideal thing would be to get rid of this stupid government and overturn the legislation.
Anyone who places any value on the countryside and conserving it for future generations of people and animals will have to accept that eventually.
Please let me know what you think about this:
http://www.kent.ac.uk/anthropology/dice … vation.pdf
That is the universoty of Kent anthropogy dept NOT the countryside alliance. You can see dozens more such good bach up neautral inks in support of hunting (plus some good racing links) on my myspace;
http://www.myspace.co/davedent
We need urban kids (and their teachers) to be educated about nature because they have such warped ideas about it caused by 50 years of Walt Disney, anthropomorphism and lack of knowledge or care about where their food comes from. That in itself is very unwise. There is quite frankly staggering ignorance.
A teacher asked me recently if we had had our horse since it was a pony.<br>But more than that. When western urban civilisation is attcking hunting cultures all over the planet, it is also actually DESRROYING animals in huge numbers through the profit motive of intensive agriculture, supermatkets, oil, logging , gas,  and habitat destruction through its selfish and ignorant lifestyle. Your synthetic petro chemical  based clothes are made from OIL….they are useless against cold (witness the towny at a point to point) and support a wasteful and climate threatening industry .THAT is why we wear tweed. It comes from an infinitely renewable resource, is warm, lasts for years and is 100% recyclable, and the mangement of the land that produces the sheep , cows (leather) mink and fox and sable (fur) KEEPS HABITATS PROTECTED FOR A MULTITUDE OF ANIMALS AGAINST URBAN GREED FOR NON RENEWABLE RESOURCES… OIL LOGGING PALM OIL, COFFEE ect etc.It is NOT the rural hunting and traditional animal farming that has to cahnge its ways…it is urban western civilisation …it is F******* the whole planet. It is the urban kids that therefore require education…and DAMN quickly.
<br>Rural kids do have experience of the town…when they go to school for a start.
bringing this back on topic, a cynic would say that the attack on hunting and the attacks on the integrity in racing and the animal rights influence with millions of pound worth of ad revenue and government bribes, may be related.
Perhaps fallon…and all jockeys… are not liked because they are pro hunting?
It is the same daft urban ignorance though that thinks it possible to fix a horse race. You do know they aren’t machines don’t you? That there are incredible and complex herd dynamics involved? That the idea of a 7stone man making a half a ton of fighting beast to do his bidding is damn near impossible?<br>Maybe the politics of envy is creeping into racing? It has NO place in national hunt racing. It is open for anybody to compete, and is 99.9% straight.
Now I am sorry to come over very strong, long winded, and passionate about these two issues….but I hope I can always give a rational argument.  I have NEVER seen a rational anti hunting argument that does not use emotive language or graphic images. Doesn’t make an impact on me I am afraid…I see buzzard ripping rabbits to shreds svery day. That is what nature is…kill or be killed. <br>So use nature itself when you have a problem is surely the best way…hawk for pigeon, cat for mice, terrier for rat, ferret for rabbit. Clear. Fair. natural. Only the weak get killed and it actually strengthens therefore the stock.
Yes it is long. But the truth is often complex and dificult to understand. Fascism is usually succesful because it offers simple answers for complex questions. But fascism doesn’t stand up to scrutiny for long. Ever.
<br>(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 11:34 pm on Sep. 22, 2006)
<br>(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 11:59 pm on Sep. 22, 2006)<br>
(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 12:15 am on Sep. 23, 2006)
1, 2, 3, 4, 5…..3501.
Sorry, you’ve exceeded your limit.
If the good hunting folk are so concerned about pest control, they can come round my house and attend to the infestation of ants that has suddenly materialised. I will even allow them to wear their silly jackets as part of the bargain.
If killing a fox by the methods you advocate is the most humane way, why does it need to be turned into a jolly day out and a spectator sport? Is it that you lot don’t have public executions to attend any longer?
Quote:
If killing a fox by the methods you advocate is the most humane way, why does it need to be turned into a jolly day out and a spectator sport? Is it that you lot don’t have public executions to attend any longer?<br>
Well since you asked…cause its fun. Not the whole killing of the fox part which I feel most of us involved in kind of put to the back of our minds but definity the occasion and the wild chase across rural landscape is a real thrill.
I recommend Safer’s® Attack Ant Traps for your little problem
SHL
You wouldn’t have ant infestation sif you didn’y upset the balance of nature. They are so big because you have eleimated nearly all the insectivores from your world. And ants have the right to be there anyway.
Just a lot is a pain as you can see. Encourage hedgehogs, do not put poison down, leave spiders alone, don’t massacre wasps, encourage lizards, ladybirds, beetles, certain birds, etc. Then next year your ant problem will be reduced.
Poison them and you will have other problems. With aphids for a start.
Everything is about natural balace; and yes…when you are in harmony with that it is a cause for celebration. Whether that be morris dancing or foxhunting. It is Rural resistance through ritual. Look at it as an objective anthropologist for a moment and see it for what it is. celebration of connection with our hunting roots. And GO and see for yourself. Like any anthropologiost who vists a tribe he doesn’t undersatnd…you will have to be courteous and respctful and try to undersatnd what you see…the only way to do that is try to "feel" it. You will feel a deep spiritual and respectful vibe if you are honest. You will certainly feel no hate or evil. Unless you suddenly find yourself next to a sab.:o
So the Hunt, from its origins in celtic/norman hunting philosophy, has always been about fair play to the fox. Stopping the peasant farmers, and more importantly the greedy land intensive saxons…massacring the animals.
Owain Glindawr is reputed to have invented it and the Curre hound are directly descned from his hounds….and through that..the whist (white) hounds of celtic legend. A direct root of blood back to the first lupus/jackus that hunted with man. Incredible to feel it.<br> The Scudamores, incidentally, are descended from him.
If I had my way we would have a welsh revolution , get rid of Blair and proclaim Scu king!:biggrin: …and as the rightful inhabitants of these isles, King of all Britain. Then we burn the cities and put all you saxons back to germany.:biggrin:
Seriously though, there is a lot of heritage there and the normans thought it admirable and sporting to allow a pest the chance of escape. The descendents of the Normans of course, are the english upper classes. And it is probably why hunting has a toff prejudice in England (but not so in Wales or Ireland). But I just look at their excellent land mangement and preservation of wildlife and game and fish and all the other animals which we love so much….songbirds, red squirrel, deer, badgers  etc. as a side effect.
Like any organised "posse" you must have order to prevent abuse…to stop a lynching. Hence the structure of the hunt. the master, the whip, the huntsman ect etc. <br>Everybody must act with decency, manners, orders, amn respect for the countryside. Of course it can get a bit hairy with hounds in full flight; and I have seen many a terrierman turn into a whelping apache…but that is their heritage too….their honesty with the land. Often from poaching people, even they had their place in the organistion of the ritual. They could dig and so were asked to. They dig only the problem fox who will not disperse. In Ireland they still are required by law to do that job when farmers have a persitent offender.
Incidentally most huntsmen (that is the man/ woman on the death end and the only one who usually sees it)are welsh….and usually from generations of huntsmen that can trace their roots back to Agincourt.  Should tell you something. They were then made gamekeepers or given their own hunting land in thanks for beating the French. The hunting ban therefore is also in breach of this law and right in Wales.
But I digress.<br>What is the fun of seeing an animals ripped to shreds ? Most hunting people will look at you blank when you say that because they DON’T see it. The "fun" is to be on a horse that comes ALIVE; and lets rip, full of heart and excitement. The horse remembers what it is. It becomes ecstatically happy and full of adrenalin. Even a horse who has NEVER hunted responds to a hunting horn. They REMEMBER what it is, and what their job is. From the mongolian stepes and the Arabian desrt of thousands of years ago they KNEW waht this sound meant. it is genetic memory.<br>Animals, you see, cannot pass on culture through words. They RETAIN genetic memory.
I haven’t ever ridden in a hunt but seen them many many times. the horses LOVE it.
Now I am lucky to have had two highly strung animals <br>an Arbian, and green green desert. They are highly intelligent and can therefore (conseptaulise". That is supposed to be impossible in animals…but believe me I trust my horses opinion over many peoples….especially about other people. They will tell you if they don’t like someone and never mind how much you get on with them that person will eventually do the dirty on you. <br>Not that that proves what I am saying. BUT they "imagine". They are able to use parts of their brain for things nature didn’t intend.  That is why such animals are called "thinkers"…because they THINK.<br>Howver MOST horses are herd animlas, not thinkers, and need the "buzz" of herd dynamic and real hunting <br>experience t be happy. We can kid them into believing that racing is the real deal for a while, but sometimes they get fed up. Hunting revitalises them, as it puts the unpredictability back in their life.
Now I know what it is like to sit on a horse whose adrenalin is up. And I know how it is to sit on a sad one.<br>So every pony club kid knows his pony comes alive when they hunt; as does every old boy on a horse he has grown to old age with.  <br>Horses do not get a buzz like us from horror films or rollercoasters or football (unless they can abstract like an Arabian). They NEED to be excited, and they need it to be REAL. Short of levelling an area the size of salisbury plain and putting wolves and leopard back and setting them free there is no way of doing that, They hacve learned to hunt with man…as have dogs. As indeed have cats. And hawks and ferrets. That is what they are for. they came to us for mutual benfit. For food and protection…and they offered us their friendship in return, tens of thousands of years ago in some cases.
You can fool people into believing we don’y need to hunt amy more, and can play games that mimic it, and even digs.  But not horses.
Even Desi, and our late Arab…though they never hunted (they would just get too wound up) know (knew) the sound of the hunting horn. They would even talk to you about it. I don’t know what they were saying, but it made them happy. But anywat Desi was banned from our local Hunt when we first had him. He has invented his own Hunt. A fox once killed his "pet" dove, and ever after he hates dogs and foxes. A master pf one of the local hunts saw Desi pick up a dog in his teeth and thorw him 10 metres into the air. The dog was okaty, just yelped a bit and had a nasty bite…but you could imagine what he would do on a hunt. It would be horrific! Before he finished racing, but Paul said he was strting to get bored with it again, I asled him if he had tried hunting him. It took him 15 minutes to stop laughing and finally he said he could not think of anyone in the world he hated enough to put them through that…so obviously he knew him well!
But most horses are not like him.
And what will happen to all these retired racehorses if hunting really does end? I don’t see the antis coming forward to buy them…and if they did, and really understood horses…they wouldnt be anti for long.
Ask a little kid. Kids say it how it is directly.<br>Ask why they like hunting. "because my pony loves it" <br>they will tell you every time.
And THAT is where the fun element is.
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(Edited by GreenGreenDesert at 1:17 am on Sep. 23, 2006)
If we based the morals and values of our society on everything kids thought fun GGD it’d be a strange old world.
Corm, have you announced somewhere that there is a prize for the longest post?:cool:
Colin
Snide comments are no substitute for thorough intelligent debate. <br>On the kids thing what I am saying is you get an honest answer SOMETIMES. They are less corrupted by what they are supposed to say…therefore sometimes more in tune with our natural and true state.
I did not say we should base our society on what kids think. <br>Kids get excited by fishing because often it is their first experience of what we are naturally supposed to do. They also have a pure insight into why their pony is as excited as they are when hunting.
I have still yet to hear a rational argument against foxhunting. I have still yet to hear any real evidence against Fallon.
I have given you quite a lot of insights into the reality of the culture of both horse racing professionals and the Hunting community, from a largely anthropological perspective as I was trained to do….objectively. Many of your opinions are without such foundation or participant observation and therefore I can only assume your ideas are based on preconceptions, rumour, subjective experience and ignorance.
To have an opinion about something is one thing. <br>Not everyone’s opinion however is equal. My opinion on <br>astriphyicocal phenomena…while it interests me…would be not as valid as an astrophysics student.
Fallon may well be guilty, and foxhunting may well be cruel. However the bulk of evidence presented do far indicates that neither are proven, and in the case of the latter, the opposite can be proven to be true.
I do not mean that to sound as high horse as it does….<br>on the contrary…I would welcome any "long winded" if rational argument and evidence to the contrary.
Fallon, like hunting, is likely to be the victim of prejudiced findings and lynch mob mentality.
Today I backed Peter Bowen’ shorse in the first race. It was suject of a heavy gamble. It lost, despite a bullying ride from Richard Johnson. In my opinion having seen the race, the horse doesn’t understand yet that the objective is to lead the herd. It had the ability…and the stamina…to win the race, but Johnson couldn’t get it interested.<br>Every one in the bookies said that Johnson gave it a crap ride, didn’t have it up with the leaders (he worked from the word go to try)and that Bowen probably pulled it. What a load of nonsense…as I hope anyone here who saw the race can confirm.
But you see the problem, and the prejudice that is rearing its ugly head. MEANWHILE…..the bookies has posters of Someone under a real cloud …Vinny Jones…all over the place (Ladbrokes). So the idea that corruption is going to put people off betting seems to fly in the face of an expensive advertisng campaign suggesting that people will be encouraged to bet if they think racing is corrupt. <br>Not making any real judgement there…just throwing one up for discussion.
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