November 1, 2002 at 11:24 #4240
Hi everyone – i’m new to your site. However, some of the names I seem to recognise from discussions in the past on various chats. This forum look really good to me.
Does anyone have any views on Exchange Betting. I’ve been looking at betfair and the concept does seem attractive but are there any pitfalls that are not readily obvious to someone like me ? Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â I’m used to betting but not familialr with this facility of being able to "lay" bets etc. <br>Any thoughts <br>AlexNovember 1, 2002 at 13:18 #101514
Thanks Ian,<br>The laying side of things is the part that interests me and it seems that it’s there that one needs to be particularly wary.
You might be interested in my first exchange venture bet:
I layed a price earlier this week, the bet was "unmatched" but seemingly because I didn’t cancel before the off the bet was carried through and I was given an average of the previously layed prices on the particular runner. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â The Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â layed amimal won and I learnt a lesson the hard way !November 1, 2002 at 17:57 #101516
Ian, how does offering a deposit account "guarentee you will always be payed"?November 1, 2002 at 18:01 #101518
Alex, if you laid a price then by defination your bet cannot be completly unmatched, you may need to explain a litlle clearer for someone to inform you as to what actually happened to your bet, one thing is pretty certain though, your bet wouldnt be matched after the startNovember 1, 2002 at 18:59 #101523
Ian, you are an helpful man, and on that score you cannot be faulted, but you are wrong to suggest that because an exchange offers a deposit account you are guarenteed to be paid.November 1, 2002 at 20:08 #101526tootingMember
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I’m not sure how much of this is helping Alexander – (Welcome to the forum)!!
I’d suggest maybe rummaging through the archive section where there’s bound to be threads on exchanges –
In the first instance I’d ignore the fascinating but impenetrable badinage between Ian and redman, and look for something more practical with larry layers, non vintage, tony25, or rory’s name prominent (among others)!!
Good luck.November 1, 2002 at 20:17 #101528tootingMember
- Total Posts 379
If not in the archive, there’s loads in the multiple pages for this part of the forum.November 1, 2002 at 22:21 #101529
Thanks folks – good to be made welcome to your forum.
Re the Exchanges; Feeling my way in this jungle, I Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â thought maybe you might be interested in my approach for the tricky h’cap Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Newm 3.40 Sat. <br>I’ve reckoned to have found Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â an interesting outsider in Captain Venti (i’ve taken 20 for a win and 5 for a place ) <br>I’m laying Nashaab because I reckon this runner is really unsuited to the soft going. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â (i’m offering 4.5 for a place)
As early as it is I note some monies for Captain Verti with little else being backed win & place of the outsiders.
I,m not one for giving selections and realise that this site sensibly takes a broader outlook, however I hope my exchange dabble will be of interest.
<br>November 2, 2002 at 01:18 #101531paddockMember
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Hi alex,and i hope like me,you,ll find t.r.f. great viewing.<br>regarding your plea for advice on betting exchanges,i would say you have tonite learned a valuable lesson.That lesson alex is dont readily accept the price on offer for your chosen selection,i note at time of writing the price on offer far exceeds the price you have taken on your chosen selection.Patience,patience,and more patience is your key.Try asking for a price that is way above what you,ll readily accept,after all that is what exchange,s are for,and you,ll often be surprised that your bet is matched.I would also add that waiting until nearer the off time,and asking for your bet to be matched can often pay dividends as most exchange business is conducted nearer the off time.<br>And finally alex,remember to double check that you have pressed the right keys,because i,ve read several horror stories about people laying horses at 22.0 instead of 2.0!<br>I wish you well with captain venti,and for all your other future bets.November 2, 2002 at 09:48 #101532
Thanks Paddock,<br>Your advice is appreciated. Some of your comments seem very real to me and I have nearly committed the cardinal sin of keying in the wrong figure.
I am definitely using the facility to ask for odds both backing and laying but will now generally come in much later in the event.
On the plus side I have had my unmatched bet taken on Nashaab(Newm3.40) Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â at 4.5 (place) who is now 11s or more. <br>Captain Venti seems on the drift so I will bite the bullet on this one.<br>Whatever happens this exchange betting has given me an extra interest in racing. <br>November 2, 2002 at 21:32 #101535redmanMember
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Firstly welcome to this fanatastic forum.
Secondly, in sympathy with tootings not unreasonable implied exhortation that Ian Davies and I should adopt the KISS principle (though I have always taken the view that no one on this forum is stupid – nor do they need to be treated as though they were stupid), I make the following "new rule" that needs to be added as a caveat to Paddocks (very valid) ‘exchange punting’ advice.
If you are going to request a price Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â – whether that is to "back" or "lay" – a runner in a horse race you must factor into your price the "cost" of both a 10% levy payment and a 15% Gross Profits Tax. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
That means you have to factor in paying 25% of your winnings where your are the offerer ("layer").
The recent 42nd Betting Levy determination has clarifed the ambiguity of what is a "layer" – a "layer" is the person who offers (or requests in exchange speak) the the price. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â The counter party to the "layer" is the "taker". Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
Unfortunately you can also be assured that HMCE will make this very clear that this was their intent of the "layer’s shoes" appoach so the levy clarication will apply to both.
"Traditional" bookmakers ("layers") only ever offered prices to bet on a runner – an enchange allows you to do both – "offer" prices for and against.
In keeping with existing Levy/GPT rules applying to bookies, exchange "layers" (offerers) will only be able to offset against there own "laying" losses (viz. will ignore any backing/taking losses).
I won’t bore anyone with detailed explaination but in simple terms this means that if a true even money GBP 1 bet (eg tossing a coin) is to be wagered on – Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â the "offerer" bears a risk of 25p cost if he wins – but the "taker" has nil risk. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
If there was just to be one bet only with equal risk then the "offerer" would have to ask to 1.75 so each one could win 75p on their 1 pound "stake". Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
So by offering anything more 1.75 the offerer is taking "unders" – now over many events its much more complicated than this – because the "offerer" actually gets balance losses against wins – and in our heads/tails example over 100s of tosses he could really offer the even money (ignoring issues like commission etc.). Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
But the bottom line is that over different events, with non-exact probabilities, with commissions to be deducted, with various reporting periods (GPT is monthly) the "offerer" has build in margin just to break even – let alone try to win – and with that margin he has to factor in the tax and levy cost.
This is the dilemma faced by bookies and they want to share it. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Generous to a fault bookes :o
(Edited by redman at 7:37 am on Nov. 3, 2002)November 3, 2002 at 10:04 #101536
To Redman et al ;<br>Am I correct in my assumption that the levy board are taking an interest but as yet not levied any tax on either the backing or laying aspects of exchange betting ?
If this is so then the only considerations that I need to make are;<br>(1) that of the commission taken by the operator <br>(2) the liability should the outcome go against<br>(3) the % profit willing to accept balanced against risk
If there were anything like 10 – 15% tax on this type of wagering, the market, in my opinion ,would not be attractive to the casual punter. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂNovember 3, 2002 at 12:19 #101538redmanMember
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The 42nd Levy scheme commences 1 April 2003.
Betfair’s T&C make it clear that the individual user is liable for GPT and/or the Levy – so don’t make the assumption that
1. your commission paid includes all costs
2. that their will not be some assessment on user betting up to now, or between now and April 1 2003.
The biggest problem is no one will know for sure until a deal is done – but my only advice is to assume the worst and then you will either be prepared or pleasantly surprised with the outcome.
Lastly, this is NOT a deduction bet by bet – its a running/cumulative liability with the 10%Levy/15%GPT to be deducted at the end of the period (annual/monthly respectively).
rouge hommeNovember 4, 2002 at 18:33 #101539
Redman,<br> Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â The value of the forum comes into its own Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â when you are able to highlight any potential problems that are not readily understood by the likes of myself. Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
I have only dipped my toe into this betting exchange business and reckon I will now hold off until the whole matter is absolutely clear to all. I’ve still plenty of interest in the safer conventional betting markets.
Again a genuine thank you, and to others who have contributed to this thread.
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